On holiday with friend and her kids; it's not going well

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

For context, my DD (8)was diagnosed a few weeks ago with a (mild) neurological condition. As part of this she has good days and bad days - good days she’s a normal 8yo with a normal routine, bad days she get dizzy spells, nausea, headaches (usually triggered by noise or bright lights) and sleeps a lot. She’ll have a 1-2 hour nap and then 14-15 hours at night. I am essentially waiting to see if she gets over it on her own before considering treatment, on advice of her doctor.

We (me, DD and 4yo DS) are on week-long UK holiday with my friend and her kids who are the same age as mine, a couple of hours from where we live. My friend’s 8yo - lets call her Emma - is a sensitive child, always has been, my friend has discussed it with me before, but I never gave it too much thought, my own DD can certainly be sensitive. However we are now on day 4 of the holiday, and living in close quarters with them I’ve realised she’s VERY over sensitive and it’s affecting everyone’s enjoyment of the holiday, and more importantly my DD’s condition. Emma is NT.

A few examples
⁃ they were colouring the other day and Emma went slightly over the lines in her picture. She burst into tears, blamed her mum because her mum was talking to me, and cried for half an hour, chucking her paper in the bin
⁃ - they put a “play” on for us the other night and Emma jumbled up for words. She got really upset, sat on the floor sobbing with her arms folded and refused to finish the play, which annoyed DD the others as they wanted to show us.
⁃ She stubbed her toe on the sofa yesterday and had a totally OTT reaction. She grabbed her foot, rolled around on the floor and screamed the most high pitched scream I’ve ever heard, relentlessly, for 20 minutes. I had to take DD out the room as it brought on a headache. If you overheard you’d think she’d have been stabbed. Her toe was fine, no break and no bruise.
⁃ We went for a picnic yesterday and when we packed up we told the kids that they all had to carry something back and we gave Emma the (lightweight) picnic blanket to carry. After a couple of minutes of walking back to the lodge, and heard a shriek. We turned around and she was about 10m away sitting on the ground crying hysterically. She said it was because the blanket was too heavy then we all left her behind. My friend had to carry for uphill back to the lodge and she cried all the way.

It’s lots of little things all the time. As to not drip feed, my friend’s DH has said before (in front of my friend) he thinks Emma’s sensitivity is exacerbated by her mum babying her. I (secretly) agree - she carries her a lot because she “gets tired legs” - such as round the supermarket, or from a restaurant to the car, or out of someone’s house. She also apologises to her a lot where I don’t think it’s necessary - she apologised for “making” her go over the lines when colouring. She also lays with her every night til she falls asleep - singing a lullaby or scratching her back, for about 1-2 hours. Her 4yo goes to sleep alone! The last 3 nights I’ve looked forward to having a bottle of wine with my friend, but she doesn’t usually come down til 10pm from putting Emma to bed. She’s attempted making her fall asleep alone before but had little success.

Anyway DD has been quite good about Emma’s tantrums considering she hasn’t been well, and every day has been a “bad day” for her. But last night when DD started to feel sleepy around 6pm, and Emma wanted her to play a game. DD said no she just wanted to watch a bit of TV, and Emma has a strop and told her mum that DD was a “bad friend”. At that point DD burst into tears and said to me, in front of Emma, that this is a rubbish holiday and Emma is ruining it 😬 well, merry hell broke loose and I took DD to bed to try and diffuse the situation.

Me and my friend had a bottle of wine and a bit of a grumble last night about it all, she said she has a daily struggle with Emma being so sensitive and her DH goes out the house for hours at a time to sit in a car park because he can’t stand the noise.

When I woke DD up today she said that she feels sick all the time and wants to go home . TBH I feel the same way, I’m sick of the shrieking and whilst I feel sorry for my friend it’s making it an unenjoyable holiday.

I figure I have 4 options:
1. Go home - say DD just isn’t well enough (DS is very chilled out and likely wouldn’t mind this but I’m loathe to cut his holiday short)
2. Tell my friend how Emma’s behaviour is affecting DD and ask her to speak to her or step in before it escalates
3. Do more as a family of three separately from the other family and maybe just meet them for dinner
4. Say nothing, they’re kids and will get over it
WWYD?

Can you continue with the holiday but get a bit of space from the other family? Some day trips on your own? They might be okay in small doses. It may well be the girl has some undiagnosed condition (ASD?) and the family are struggling to deal with her. The difficulty falling asleep and the meltdowns make me think she could possibly be on the autistic spectrum. It would be a shame if this holiday caused a rift between the two families. Having said that family first, so if you need to go, go. x

Agree with other posters that say go home.

You need to put your DD first. She's unhappy and you have a way of dealing with that, by leaving and returning home. Let your friend deal with the fallout of her DD's behaviour.

You’re loathed to cut your little boys holiday short. It’s not a holiday though. It sounds like you’d have more freakin fun in Alcatraz.
Emma is a certainly a snow flake in the making. In her defence however it does bloody hurt like hell when you stub your toe. That said that rolling about was probably a bit over an over reaction Jackson.

My instinct says to go home. DD is having another bad day, as is Emma, and I don’t see the holiday being salvaged. I need to put DD first, I don’t want her to look back and wonder why I didn’t have the guts to leave the holiday she hated and was ill throughout.

Absolutely just cut your losses and go home. It's not worth it. Is the friendship worth it?

Tbh I wouldn't say Emma is sensitive, more bratty and spoiled. Why is the mum apologising? I wouldn't let my 5yo get away with that behaviour- and she has definite dramatic/emotional tendencies.

Option 1 but don’t blame Emma if you like your friend and maybe just meet her without the kids In Future

I'd go home..

But I also wouldn't be so certain that 'Emma' is simply being oversensitive and a baby... some of that stuff fits with undiagnosed Ehlers Danlos (and probably a millionty other things too)...

I have EDS and have had it all my life and didn't know, I was slow to walk, fell over a lot, carrying ANYTHING no matter how light put me off balance and was incredibly difficult to then walk without pain.

Right now, my skin hurts without anything touching it, stubbing a toe would be agonising for some time afterwards even if there were no outward signs of injury.

I regularly broke my ankles when it was assumed I had just twisted them (later xrays showed all the old healed breaks).

As a child I complained of walking being tiring, being left behind all the time as I walked slower than everyone else, but I couldn't explain that pain, and I had no idea that everyone else did NOT experience it so I just grew up assuming I was lazy and idle and didn't like walking!

If Emma really is experiencing far higher levels of pain and fatigue than would be normal for what she is doing, shes then constantly under stress and that would make anyone more clingy, less able to settle, less able to cope with frustrations like drawing outside the lines etc.

So I would go home.. but I'd gently encourage friend to investigate this stuff further.

If you haven't already go home and go low contact with Emma. I once went on weekend break with my DCs and a friend and her DCs. Her son was older than mine but it was the demands "watch me do this" to us when he was doing something (like swinging on something) god forbid I had a sip of my tea or something. He was rude to my DC insisted they "watched him" and did not touch anything he was on. So outside playhouse etc they were banned if he was using it, and mine were not allowed to even open the door if he was on it etc and we had paid 50/50. I lasted from 7am to 11am on the Saturday morning (having done a Friday night of it) -I then buggered off home. We went to the cinema when we got home and to the beach on the Sunday and Monday. My friend was apologetic but like Emma's mum -pandered to him 24/7. He wanted her phone -she passed it over. If I said "no I'm not coming outside to watch you I'm playing x with my DC right now" he was full on the floor kicking and screaming and friend said "please can you watch outside him right now" -I said no. Gathered our things and left. She did apologise but I did leave it a long time before we had a playdate!

Go home if you are unhappy and your DD is getting unwell - and think yourself lucky that your DD's condition has enough evidence to be diagnosed. E's behaviour could easily be due to something that often goes undiagnosed such as joint hypermobility that has as part of the syndrome not only high pain sensitivity but also anxiety. If you are a parent of a child who is in pain a lot/anxious you will too often get blamed for trying to to help said child in a kind way.

I'd do option 3 but I'd definitely consider option 1 after a day of doing my own thing.

However, I don't think Emma is NT. Her behaviour sounds like there is more going on than just being a sensitive child.

Next time holiday with just your own children. I absolutely hate holidaying with anyone other than my immediate family and no posts I ever read on here dissuade me from believing that is the best approach.

@crackofdoom

I know an Emma too, except that he is a boy. He may get a diagnosis in time; at the moment the prime suspects are ASD/ anxiety. Problem is, his mum does the same as Emma's mum; constantly apologising, caving in to unreasonable demands; always making last minute changes to accommodate him.

Thing is, I am autistic, and I don't know how to tell her that, if he is on the spectrum, all this last minute fannying around and constant changes of plan are literally torturing him. Autistic kids need rules and boundaries more than NT children do.

Not all autistic children. PDA children need the opposite; plenty of choice and flexibility.

If weather is fine try 3 with 2 when you mums are alone. However make the outings your dd choice so she has some positive memories. If weather cruddy and you are likely to all be cooped up then make plans to leave early.

This sounds like a dreadful situation for everybody. It's interesting that Emma's mother isn't considering an assessment for Emma. Do you think this is because she is in denial, oblivious or because she fears it's a reflection of her parenting? If she was at the end of her tether with her you'd think she'd want to see if there was anything causing her daughter's behaviour and accessing support to help both of them. Ultimately, it's her decision. Her husband sounds not just useless but actively unhelpful.
My concern is that the first response to any behaviour issues now is always to seek a diagnosis as though that will suddenly make things easier or excuse the unwanted behaviour. I think, for example, we are still seeing people disbelieving that ADHD exists and it is really just 'naughty boy syndrome' and 'an excuse for bad parenting' - things I have shockingly heard it being called in one school I worked in. When people start saying that unwanted/undesirable or just bad behaviour must be down to ADHD/ASD, etc, I think it becomes problematic. Not all people living with ASD/ADHD/SEN display undesirable behaviour. It would be a shame if people as a whole start to equate bad behaviour with an SEN diagnosis.

Some people don't parent well and their children ultimately pay the price for it. I'm not making any assumptions regarding Emma or her mother but sometimes bad behaviour is just a choice and the child has learnt that it gets them what they want, and what child doesn't want to get their own way all the time?
We see it on here a lot - an adult has behaved appallingly and the first response is usually, could they have ASD? It's just a shame that SEN is usually associated with undesirable behaviours and are often used as an excuse.

@Wearywithteens

The amount of times I put my children through this with other people’s kids. Now as teenagers they tell me how shit it was for them. I just wish I could go back in time and say - ‘right I think it’s time for us to go home.’

Write it off and go home OP - look after your little girl and praise her (and your DS) for their resilience and being good kids.

Thank you for posting this @Wearywithteens it's reinforced that leaving would be the right thing to do!

I'd go home if I was you. Your daughter is having a rotten time and you seem to be as well, plus it's clearly making her ill.

Is Emma NT? That's really weird behaviour for an 8 year old. I was hypersensitive as a kid and was diagnosed with autism when I was 10 after my dad died and I was acting up. I don't remember behaving like that though. Then again, she could just be an immature little brat. I don't know.

@Marchitectmummy

It sounds like both your daughter and your friends daughter have too complex needs to be compatible to be on holiday together.

I think before chatting to your friend you may need to see the holiday from their side equally. You describe both as being sensitive but yours is acceptablly so and your friends isn't. Your daughters needs may be explainable but still will have also had a negative affect on the others, sleeping for long hours, needing naps part way through the day and everyday being a bad day while on holiday etc will have been tricky for the other family to deal with.

I think your best option is to go home, have a bit of sympathy for the other family and save your friendship.

I agree. Emma is not the only child whose needs are impinging on the holiday, it's just that she is loud about it.

I would also advise Emma's mum to look into the sore legs thing. I once taught a child about her age, whose mother told me to ignore his moaning, that he was lazy, hated walking etc. Then one day she came to see me in tears, turned out he had a painful, significant and potentially life altering problem with his hips, and eventually had to be immobilised in a full body cast for six months. Not all moaning is a whinge.

Forgot to add, I'd just go with 1. You don't have to tell your friend about Emma, just say your daughter isn't well and needs to go home and recover for a bit. It is true after all.

@viques is that irritable hip syndrome? My brother had it as a kid and initially Mum thought he was faking, but he ended up in hospital for it.

I would 100% head home saying my daughter was feeling unwell.

I'd not make a big deal about it cos I feel sorry for the other parent having to cope with that. She must be aware that it's not fun for anyone.

I've been away with friends before and the parenting style clashes have spoilt it a bit. One friend didnt have a bedtime for their toddler, he just sat with us and fussed about while we were trying to enjoy our evening. Another couple had never spent more than 2 days with their child since he had started nursery at 6 months - so our week away was an eye opener for them in terms of what to feed him and when, how to get him to nap. It was horrendous and really painful to watch while keeping opinions to myself.

I'm sure my parenting annoys others too! I do an elaborate long bedtime that I wish I'd never got into. Plus DC sometimes eats random shit for meals cos I just want something down them.

I think my joint holidays in future would either be short or be clear up front that we would have some separate family time.

Cut your losses. Sent Emma home. Stay fir the remaining 3 days.

It's interesting that Emma's mother isn't considering an assessment for Emma. Do you think this is because she is in denial, oblivious or because she fears it's a reflection of her parenting?

She said it's never occurred to her before, she always thought Emma was sensitive and would get less sensitive as she got older.

I think she's also wary that her DH has one foot out the door - he thinks she treats the kids differently, and he won't open his mind to the possibility that Emma may be non-NT. He thinks it's 100% down to my friend day before we came away, he'd come back from the gym and Emma wanted to sing him a song she made up. He said give me 20 minutes I'll have a shower first and she burst into tears. My friend said to him could you just watch her before your shower please - anyway it seems it ended in a row (away from the kids) as her DH thought my friend should've supported him and made Emma wait, and he feels undermined a lot to pander to Emma.

He's quite happy to parent as and when he sees fit though. Happy to leave it to her, and complains when his unpaid nanny doesn't produce a perfect child. My friend never gets the chance to go to the gym

I wouldn't be criticising my friends parenting unless I was prepared to damage the friendship irreparably.

If she actually asks you for parenting advice it's fine to give some ideas in a sensitive non critical way.

Oh no, I feel sorry for your friend her dd and also you and your dd! Definitely leave and just say your dd hasn't been feeling well (which she hasn't). I don't think I'd tell her why though. I don't see what you'd get out of that and think it would possibly come across as cruel or a parting shot iyswim.

Nobody's fault really, but it doesn't sound much fun for anyone, so I'd go home.

@PhilSwagielka

Forgot to add, I'd just go with 1. You don't have to tell your friend about Emma, just say your daughter isn't well and needs to go home and recover for a bit. It is true after all.

@viques is that irritable hip syndrome? My brother had it as a kid and initially Mum thought he was faking, but he ended up in hospital for it.

I can't remember what it was. He went off to hospital and I moved on to another school!

"She said it's never occurred to her before, she always thought Emma was sensitive and would get less sensitive as she got older."

But if you always react the same to the "sensitivity" there's no reason for Emma to change, is there?

Also, there's sensitive & there's indulged, isn't there?

I don't think that telling an 8yr old that you'll shower first was wrong of the dad, but it sounds as if there are other issues.

I feel sorry for your friend, having such a useless husband who can't be bothered to parent his own daughter.

I would definitely go home, the whole thing is a nightmare. The reasons Emma behaves like this don't change that this is utterly miserable for your family.