On holiday with friend and her kids; it's not going well

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

For context, my DD (8)was diagnosed a few weeks ago with a (mild) neurological condition. As part of this she has good days and bad days - good days she’s a normal 8yo with a normal routine, bad days she get dizzy spells, nausea, headaches (usually triggered by noise or bright lights) and sleeps a lot. She’ll have a 1-2 hour nap and then 14-15 hours at night. I am essentially waiting to see if she gets over it on her own before considering treatment, on advice of her doctor.

We (me, DD and 4yo DS) are on week-long UK holiday with my friend and her kids who are the same age as mine, a couple of hours from where we live. My friend’s 8yo - lets call her Emma - is a sensitive child, always has been, my friend has discussed it with me before, but I never gave it too much thought, my own DD can certainly be sensitive. However we are now on day 4 of the holiday, and living in close quarters with them I’ve realised she’s VERY over sensitive and it’s affecting everyone’s enjoyment of the holiday, and more importantly my DD’s condition. Emma is NT.

A few examples
⁃ they were colouring the other day and Emma went slightly over the lines in her picture. She burst into tears, blamed her mum because her mum was talking to me, and cried for half an hour, chucking her paper in the bin
⁃ - they put a “play” on for us the other night and Emma jumbled up for words. She got really upset, sat on the floor sobbing with her arms folded and refused to finish the play, which annoyed DD the others as they wanted to show us.
⁃ She stubbed her toe on the sofa yesterday and had a totally OTT reaction. She grabbed her foot, rolled around on the floor and screamed the most high pitched scream I’ve ever heard, relentlessly, for 20 minutes. I had to take DD out the room as it brought on a headache. If you overheard you’d think she’d have been stabbed. Her toe was fine, no break and no bruise.
⁃ We went for a picnic yesterday and when we packed up we told the kids that they all had to carry something back and we gave Emma the (lightweight) picnic blanket to carry. After a couple of minutes of walking back to the lodge, and heard a shriek. We turned around and she was about 10m away sitting on the ground crying hysterically. She said it was because the blanket was too heavy then we all left her behind. My friend had to carry for uphill back to the lodge and she cried all the way.

It’s lots of little things all the time. As to not drip feed, my friend’s DH has said before (in front of my friend) he thinks Emma’s sensitivity is exacerbated by her mum babying her. I (secretly) agree - she carries her a lot because she “gets tired legs” - such as round the supermarket, or from a restaurant to the car, or out of someone’s house. She also apologises to her a lot where I don’t think it’s necessary - she apologised for “making” her go over the lines when colouring. She also lays with her every night til she falls asleep - singing a lullaby or scratching her back, for about 1-2 hours. Her 4yo goes to sleep alone! The last 3 nights I’ve looked forward to having a bottle of wine with my friend, but she doesn’t usually come down til 10pm from putting Emma to bed. She’s attempted making her fall asleep alone before but had little success.

Anyway DD has been quite good about Emma’s tantrums considering she hasn’t been well, and every day has been a “bad day” for her. But last night when DD started to feel sleepy around 6pm, and Emma wanted her to play a game. DD said no she just wanted to watch a bit of TV, and Emma has a strop and told her mum that DD was a “bad friend”. At that point DD burst into tears and said to me, in front of Emma, that this is a rubbish holiday and Emma is ruining it 😬 well, merry hell broke loose and I took DD to bed to try and diffuse the situation.

Me and my friend had a bottle of wine and a bit of a grumble last night about it all, she said she has a daily struggle with Emma being so sensitive and her DH goes out the house for hours at a time to sit in a car park because he can’t stand the noise.

When I woke DD up today she said that she feels sick all the time and wants to go home . TBH I feel the same way, I’m sick of the shrieking and whilst I feel sorry for my friend it’s making it an unenjoyable holiday.

I figure I have 4 options:
1. Go home - say DD just isn’t well enough (DS is very chilled out and likely wouldn’t mind this but I’m loathe to cut his holiday short)
2. Tell my friend how Emma’s behaviour is affecting DD and ask her to speak to her or step in before it escalates
3. Do more as a family of three separately from the other family and maybe just meet them for dinner
4. Say nothing, they’re kids and will get over it
WWYD?

My cousin’s daughter was an Emma, and completely spoilt and over indulged. She’s now 30, and her mother is way over involved in her daughter’s life, sorting out her divorce solicitor, looking after her son for a couple of weeks when her daughter fancies a holiday, even if it is inconvenient for her and she has to use up her annual leave. Her daughter cries and says “If you really loved me you would do this for me, you know how much I need a break.” My cousin won’t book a holiday without checking that it is OK for her daughter and that she can manage without her for a few days. I suspect that the relationship between my cousin and her daughter paid a significant role in her daughter splitting up from her husband.

I'd try the 'doing your own thing' with the children - if that doesn't work, cut your losses and leave.
Yes, it's partly because your daughter is unwell, but in discussion with your friend, be honest and let her know that drama queen's spoilt brat behaviour is a contributing factor.

“Emma” sounds a bit like my dd at that age, who may/may not have mild aspergers and definitely anxiety
Yy Emma reads as a DC with anxiety to me. Also, although the OP used lots of lines to list the 'issues' with Emma. At most they have taken up two hours over three days and that time only needed to be OP's friend's time. OP could have taken the other DCs rather than providing an audience for Emma's meltdowns/upsets. I do feel it was unfair for OP's DD to blame Emma for ruining the holiday.

You have two adults prioritising their DC who needs most support. I can't imagine it's restful for anyone, not least the younger DCs who are being sidelined to support their siblings. But it's a reality for lots of parents and families. If OP expected a different holiday and a different focus, then she should leave citing DD's headaches and sickness.

I have an 'Emma' and I'm sure my/DH's behaviour looks like pandering at times but in out of the home situations, you're trying to keep the peace, aren't you? And you're knackered from the hours of trying to get an anxious child to sleep in a strange place.

'Emma' would appear to have very high levels of anxiety.

You have an ideal excuse for cutting the holiday short and as your DD's illness is obviously no-one's fault, your friend doesn't need to take offence. I very much doubt she's enjoying the holiday either.

It does make me wonder how Emma survives/behaves at school without Mummy to pander to her every whim.

My niece is a classic example of this. We visited when she was about 4 and I needed to walk round to the local shop. Niece wanted to come too. Fine. She was so busy gabbing and chatting to me that she stumbled and fell over the edge of the kerb and skinned her knee. She shouted, bottom lip wobbled a bit. Scooped her up, there there, it's OK, what are we going to buy at the shops? Quite happily walked the rest of the way to the shop, and home.

As soon as she set foot over the doorstep home, all hell broke loose. SIL screamed - literally - at the sight of a skinned knee, niece burst into tears and wailed for the next 45 minutes about how much pain she was in, SIL flapped about with dettol, cotton wool balls, plasters, elevating the limb, endless cuddles and fuss and nonsense.

Seriously it was SUCH a drama. Niece as she grew up was used to this level of fuss and drama over the most routine events. She's now a young adult and still insists on a lot of attention and expects everyone to dance to her tune.

One of DD's friends is an "emma" - no diagosis of anything but hugely anxious about everything. Rather than helping her with coping strategies and teaching her about resilience, the parents just remove her from any situation she doesn't like. If they don't respond immediately, she tantrums until they do. And they give in every single time. On the residential at the last year of primary, she told DD she had no intention sleeping over and that she would create such a massive fuss that her parents would have to come to get her. Which she did, and they did. And now, 5 years later, she is still tantrumming to get her own way with them and refusing to go to school as the teachers have different ideas about dealing with girls who think they know best.

Are you sure she’s NT? I have a bit of an Emma, she’s 7. It’s not as regular as your situation sounds but she is super melodramatic, as well as hyperactive and often inappropriate. We were starting the process of a diagnosis before lockdown as I think it’s likely she has ADHD (her dad does). It’s hard work, your friend needs support not judgment.

Option three. And if it’s still too stressful then go home.

I think all the kids needs time with their own parent anyway, although your friend may not

My cousin’s daughter was an Emma, and completely spoilt and over indulged. She’s now 30, and her mother is way over involved in her daughter’s life

Yes - my niece who I mentioned above is now 25, still lives at home, and gets her mum/dad to take her to her shift work job at 5am because she hasn't got round to learning to drive. Thinks the fact that she's known as "Princess Emma" among her colleagues is amusing.

One of my DDs is a bit like "Emma" - extremely sensitive and prone to tantrums still at 7. I don't think it's my parenting - my older DD isn't like it at all. Neither of them are spoilt and I don't give her things to try and end the tantrums, although maybe I would if I was embarrassed in company and wanted to do anything to stop it. There is a book called "the highly sensitive child" which describes her to a T (and reminds me a lot of myself at that age - think it must be a genetic thing as I'm still quite sensitive though haven't had a tantrum for a few decades!).

I have learned from years of experience that getting angry only prolongs the outburst, just being calm and firm and ignoring the histrionics as far as possible is the best thing. It's quite exhausting to be honest, although she's a very bright and cheerful child most of the time.

Being on holiday and out of routine does set her off, so I probably wouldn't do an extended holiday with people outside the family. In your case, go home if you think you can't bear it or your children want to leave but I would try to have a chat with your friend explaining that the dynamic hasn't worked rather than blaming her child, unless you want to give up the friendship. I'm sure she already realises it's tricky for everyone. Maybe she will offer to leave instead. Or you could try to do as many separate things as possible.

Thank you so much for your responses - it’s nice to see I’m not being over dramatic!

To answer some questions:
⁃ Emma is NT as far as anyone knows. I asked my friend last night if she’s ever had, or considered having, her assessed and she said no.
⁃ Yes her DH is fairly rubbish all round and probably exacerbates the situation too with with uselessness
⁃ We are only ever usually around them for no more than 4 hours, in which time Emma usually gets upset over something, but it’s very different seeing it several times a day in the same living quarters
⁃ She has had issues at school, fall outs with friends because of the sensitivity it seems

And to the poster who claimed I said my friend was a bad parent - don’t you just love it when people make things up on here 🙄

My instinct says to go home. DD is having another bad day, as is Emma, and I don’t see the holiday being salvaged. I need to put DD first, I don’t want her to look back and wonder why I didn’t have the guts to leave the holiday she hated and was ill throughout.

I’ll be honest with my friend and just say DD is too unwell and the noise and chaos is making her ill - which is the truth. I don’t have to go into specifics. Knowing my friend, she will understand.

I feel bad for cutting a holiday short though and I’m looking into having a couple of day’s away next week. We were meant to be here until Wednesday so maybe if DD is better by Monday do Monday & Tuesday away

First of all I think you have learned a lesson here which is that you should not go on holiday with them again. Secondly when being around other people's kids some allowances fo have to be made. They are out of their routine so yes, 'bratty'or unreasonable behaviour may occur and be as a result of that. Have they not had to make any allowances for your dd?

I do not think asking your friend to step in before Emma overreacted will help, it will come across as her dd being a problem and more than likely she will get defensive. That most definitely could affect your friendship. Instead suggest that you will be taking it easy today/ tomorrow to oet your dd rest and so you could all do separate activities for the next day or two. You might find that Emma's behaviour settles and your own children enjoy the end of the holiday.

Going forward do not book to go on holiday with them again. I am assuming that you and your friend can meet up for adult conversation when your kids are back at school?

Not all children develop at the same rate and that goes for social and emotional development also. She can be NT and still find those things hard. Being away from home and with people outside of her family for an extended period of time is going to exacerbate these difficulties. Her family clearly needs some support and if she were my friend i would recommend getting in touch with the family support worker linked to her school. Might be called something different in your area but essentially their job is to listen and refer to other services. The family need help and support not nasty judgment.
This obviously doesn't help you right now. I would try doing more separate activities first and if it's still not working then leave early.

@Pumperthepumper

Going to let you in on a little secret about kids too: they tend to be quite manipulative. If they want something, then they will try different things to get what they want. That can be crying, screaming, having a tantrum. From the age of 2 I could manipulate my own dad into reading me more bed time stories by just crying so he would read me another one. He fell for that once only until he was told by my mum he had been tricked by a toddler. That's what kids do, the problem is if you don't spot that. The mother of Emma didn't spot this behaviour, and carried on. That just escalates it. It makes it far worse, to the point that the child will pretend to be sad to get what they want.

Kids are very smart in working things like that out. You give them an inch and they will take a mile. Finding that balance to know when they aren't being truthful is difficult.

I would also suggest ‘Emma’ is probably not NT, she puts very much in mind of a child I cared for in an Early Years setting who was later diagnosed as dyspraxic. He would roll around the floor screaming that he couldn’t put his own socks on as he was too weak, not being able to colour in the lines would have been a massive trigger for him. His behaviour was intolerable and his mother’s pandered to him to an extreme extent but her life in the short term would have been unbearable without mitigating the terrible behaviour in some way.

I sympathise enormously with you and your DD especially as she isn’t well, either go home or spend the days separately.

@GlummyMcGlummerson I think you’re doing the right thing.

A couple of days away with just your family would be great and take the pressure out of the situation for your dd.

You absolutely have to put her first regardless of Emma and her troubles.

You have just deceived my old friend and her son at that age.

The Dad would go visibly grumpy if she's child didn't settle after a few mins, he'd leave friend to sort it and she ended up having to manage a toddler and a grumpy husband.

Friend ended up bending over backwards to stop her child being upset as he dh would storm out for hours and he'd also blame her.

My friend knew people didn't like her son being around which made her more anxious and she'd end up doing whatever to stop his "tantrums" because he would scream for hours instead of just half an hours.

Described.*

Some really horrible, judgemental responses on this thread. You can be assertive and end a holiday that's not working for you without being judgemental of someone else's parenting (when you don't have their child). Especially one who's getting no help from the other parent (maybe he also has difficulties - the car park thing was quite telling).

I think you have been quite measured yourself OP, but just give this trip up as a bad job. It happens.

@MaggieAndHopey

Is 'neurotypical' even an accepted scientific term? It seems like such a bullshit concept to me - that there is such a thing as a 'typical' brain .

I see what you mean - we are all different but I suspect 'neurotypical' is used to avoid using the word 'normal'. If we said, for example, Paul has autism but John is normal, that implies Paul is 'not normal'. Obviously that's a very negative thing to imply and not even true - what is normal anyway? So on the whole, I think it's just a kinder thing to say.

I guess "neurotypical" also implies the difficulties you experience are typical ones for the child's age. For instance, my 7 yo DD is afraid of spiders and dogs. Not unusual. But she can take up to 3 hours to fall asleep and cannot as yet do so alone. Not typical (although interestingly, it is typical for kids with ADHD).

My instinct says to go home. DD is having another bad day, as is Emma, and I don’t see the holiday being salvaged. I need to put DD first, I don’t want her to look back and wonder why I didn’t have the guts to leave the holiday she hated and was ill throughout.

Think you've nailed it, OP. Your dd is already having a rough time with her condition, but even if she didn't, she needs to know her mum puts her needs first. She will remember with gratitude and love that her mum listened.

Emma- whatever causes her behaviour- is Emma's mum's responsibility, not yours.

Also I'm under no illusion that a child with a neurological condition is easy to be on holiday with. We booked the holiday before the diagnosis but there's nothing I can do, if she's tired I need to put her to bed. Just one of those things really!