On holiday with friend and her kids; it's not going well

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

For context, my DD (8)was diagnosed a few weeks ago with a (mild) neurological condition. As part of this she has good days and bad days - good days she’s a normal 8yo with a normal routine, bad days she get dizzy spells, nausea, headaches (usually triggered by noise or bright lights) and sleeps a lot. She’ll have a 1-2 hour nap and then 14-15 hours at night. I am essentially waiting to see if she gets over it on her own before considering treatment, on advice of her doctor.

We (me, DD and 4yo DS) are on week-long UK holiday with my friend and her kids who are the same age as mine, a couple of hours from where we live. My friend’s 8yo - lets call her Emma - is a sensitive child, always has been, my friend has discussed it with me before, but I never gave it too much thought, my own DD can certainly be sensitive. However we are now on day 4 of the holiday, and living in close quarters with them I’ve realised she’s VERY over sensitive and it’s affecting everyone’s enjoyment of the holiday, and more importantly my DD’s condition. Emma is NT.

A few examples
⁃ they were colouring the other day and Emma went slightly over the lines in her picture. She burst into tears, blamed her mum because her mum was talking to me, and cried for half an hour, chucking her paper in the bin
⁃ - they put a “play” on for us the other night and Emma jumbled up for words. She got really upset, sat on the floor sobbing with her arms folded and refused to finish the play, which annoyed DD the others as they wanted to show us.
⁃ She stubbed her toe on the sofa yesterday and had a totally OTT reaction. She grabbed her foot, rolled around on the floor and screamed the most high pitched scream I’ve ever heard, relentlessly, for 20 minutes. I had to take DD out the room as it brought on a headache. If you overheard you’d think she’d have been stabbed. Her toe was fine, no break and no bruise.
⁃ We went for a picnic yesterday and when we packed up we told the kids that they all had to carry something back and we gave Emma the (lightweight) picnic blanket to carry. After a couple of minutes of walking back to the lodge, and heard a shriek. We turned around and she was about 10m away sitting on the ground crying hysterically. She said it was because the blanket was too heavy then we all left her behind. My friend had to carry for uphill back to the lodge and she cried all the way.

It’s lots of little things all the time. As to not drip feed, my friend’s DH has said before (in front of my friend) he thinks Emma’s sensitivity is exacerbated by her mum babying her. I (secretly) agree - she carries her a lot because she “gets tired legs” - such as round the supermarket, or from a restaurant to the car, or out of someone’s house. She also apologises to her a lot where I don’t think it’s necessary - she apologised for “making” her go over the lines when colouring. She also lays with her every night til she falls asleep - singing a lullaby or scratching her back, for about 1-2 hours. Her 4yo goes to sleep alone! The last 3 nights I’ve looked forward to having a bottle of wine with my friend, but she doesn’t usually come down til 10pm from putting Emma to bed. She’s attempted making her fall asleep alone before but had little success.

Anyway DD has been quite good about Emma’s tantrums considering she hasn’t been well, and every day has been a “bad day” for her. But last night when DD started to feel sleepy around 6pm, and Emma wanted her to play a game. DD said no she just wanted to watch a bit of TV, and Emma has a strop and told her mum that DD was a “bad friend”. At that point DD burst into tears and said to me, in front of Emma, that this is a rubbish holiday and Emma is ruining it 😬 well, merry hell broke loose and I took DD to bed to try and diffuse the situation.

Me and my friend had a bottle of wine and a bit of a grumble last night about it all, she said she has a daily struggle with Emma being so sensitive and her DH goes out the house for hours at a time to sit in a car park because he can’t stand the noise.

When I woke DD up today she said that she feels sick all the time and wants to go home . TBH I feel the same way, I’m sick of the shrieking and whilst I feel sorry for my friend it’s making it an unenjoyable holiday.

I figure I have 4 options:
1. Go home - say DD just isn’t well enough (DS is very chilled out and likely wouldn’t mind this but I’m loathe to cut his holiday short)
2. Tell my friend how Emma’s behaviour is affecting DD and ask her to speak to her or step in before it escalates
3. Do more as a family of three separately from the other family and maybe just meet them for dinner
4. Say nothing, they’re kids and will get over it
WWYD?

it does sound like she panders to her though-crying to get her way seems a regular thing for her
she has to learn she cant get instant attention

Not sure if this been said already but it seems like she may be Autistic she sounds just like my child. My child also has to be carried a lot but this is due to a heart defect.

I would try a day of option 3 and then, if that doesn’t help, go for option 1.

Are both girls miserable all the time?

FWIW I’d also put money on Emma either not being fully NT or having an undiagnosed physical condition.

@GlummyMcGlummerson
Oh yuck...The child sounds a complete and utter indulged Violet Elizabeth Bott .

She will be a nightmare, and unless nipped firmly in the bud, this awful behaviour will carry on into adulthood.

I'd go home, especially as your DD isn't enjoying the company of Violet Elizabeth.

I don't think that telling an 8yr old that you'll shower first was wrong of the dad, but it sounds as if there are other issues

I agree, I can see it from both sides. If my kids want to show me something but I'm cleaning/getting ready I let them know they have to wait, that adults need to finish tasks sometimes to be able to sit down properly with the kids

I know a ‘Tom’ who is like Emma. His sister is the same. Their parents were old friends.

A very long friendship was ended after their last visit. It was exhausting and the kids were so unbelievably needy - I couldn’t bear it.

It sounds like Emma is probably sensitive but your friend hasn’t dealt with it very well.

I have an Autistic 7yo and absolutely would not put up with that behaviour from him.

I think the thing with having a child with neurodiversity issues is that in the beginning you often don’t question it, especially with a first child. You might be aware that they are harder work than your friends’ kids but you might not know just how hard work. And there is the idea that they will get better as they get older (ASD kids sometimes get worse as they get older).

In the example you mention above I can’t see why the father couldn’t listen to a song for a child before his shower. Seems like there are several things going on - a child with possible SN, a father who is not engaging with parenting and discipline and then being critical. A diagnosis could possibly help them all, they would be able to have a better understanding of her needs and a smoother time at home.

But bringing this stuff up isn’t easy. People don’t like to talk about it, there is still a stigma. I know another child who I’m fairly certain has some SN but I wouldn’t dream of raising that with his parents. We also have a child in the family who I think could benefit from assessment but I raised that a few months ago and caused a massive family feud (still not sure how they were so offended when we have an ASD child ourselves)

@PhilSwagielka

I feel sorry for your friend, having such a useless husband who can't be bothered to parent his own daughter.

Yes, The sad thing is she's entirely reliant on him financially as she's a SAHM and leaving is out of the question - he gets away with doing jack shit because he thinks that as a SAHM she's the default parent until he feels up to chipping in.

Are both girls miserable all the time?

Not all the time but enough for there to be tension

Gosh, this is making me feel better about my somewhat aggressive 8 year old with ADHD who would never get carried and knows it, tries to say his mistakes are other people's fault but we don't let him get away with it.
I'd try 3 but it does also sound like the mum needs a reality check.

Has Emma's Mum had Emma checked over physically?

I used to be called a drama queen for getting tired achy legs when walking short distances (such as the supermarket) and struggling to carry things. I kept complaining of joint and muscle pains as a child 'oh that's just growing pains'. Turns out I have Ehlers Danlos Syndrome.

I wouldn't ignore a child complaining of pain and difficulties like that, I'd take them to the doctor.

A cousin of mine complained about lots of headaches etc. as a child which their parents ignored. Turned out to be a brain tumour.

Your friends child sounds like bloody hard work and not normal for her age. But as you say, it seems that a lot of it is down to the mother!

I'd either just go home (shame for your kids, but sounds best), or just day you want some alone time with them and do your own thing for a couple of days.

The shower thing could go either way I guess - sounds like there’s a pattern of him putting his own needs first though, and he could easily have just listened to a little song. It’s what loving parents do. And a 20 min shower when he’d already had a nice long break at the gym seems a bit much.

FeedMeSantiago that’s awful that you were dismissed for so long!

You could maybe start by talking to your friend about her daughter's physical difficulties OP. For some reason people are more open to te idea that their lo may have a medical condition than a neurodiversity.

I don't know why with kids the default is to believe that they are lying and behaving badly. If your friends dd is regularly saying walking is painful and difficult then maybe that's because it is?

I am thinking that I hope your fiend doesn't see this, as it would be obvious it's her and her child.

[quote KeepingPlain]@Pumperthepumper

Going to let you in on a little secret about kids too: they tend to be quite manipulative. If they want something, then they will try different things to get what they want. That can be crying, screaming, having a tantrum. From the age of 2 I could manipulate my own dad into reading me more bed time stories by just crying so he would read me another one. He fell for that once only until he was told by my mum he had been tricked by a toddler. That's what kids do, the problem is if you don't spot that. The mother of Emma didn't spot this behaviour, and carried on. That just escalates it. It makes it far worse, to the point that the child will pretend to be sad to get what they want.

Kids are very smart in working things like that out. You give them an inch and they will take a mile. Finding that balance to know when they aren't being truthful is difficult.[/quote]
I don’t believe for a second you remember being deliberately manipulative to your dad at age 2, as an adult. That’s definitely a family story you’ve accepted as fact.

You don’t seem to like children very much - do you have your own kids? How did you raise them?

Do all 3.

Tell your friend.
Then you can work out options together - so probably do separate things and meet up for dinner

OR

Tell your friend.
Cut your losses and go home. (Could you leave your son with her?)

"Could you leave your son with her?"

Why on earth would the OP go home without her 4 year old son?

Could you leave your son with her

Because the poor woman doesnt have enough on her plate?

I would question whether Emma is truly NT and the fact that her own father sits in his car for hours suggests to me that all is not well and that poor Emma has plenty to be anxious about.

But I understand the holiday isn't fun. I'd sack off and say your DD isn't sleeping well or something.

WiddlinDiddlin that thought was also the one that occurred to me, but I didn't like to mention it because of internet diagnosing and all that sort of thing.

For those of you not in the know, Ehlers Danlos is a condition that not only causes actual joint damage through hypermobility but also messes with the nerve signals to the brain so you experience pain for no apparent reason or long after the cause is gone- a bit like people can still feel the pain in an amputated limb.

I'm 56: I'm still learning that some of my physical reactions are not normal, family who have known me all my life are still surprised to learn that some very everyday movements cause me pain or intense fatigue. Why would I have mentioned it when I always thought it was normal? In my family, EDS is clearly hereditary though not something that was spoken of until recently. What has helped is that we have been cheerfully supportive of each other, no parents have been extremely anxious and dads have been hands-on and supportive. Optimal conditions in other words.

Go Home - I feel sorry for her other child.

Perhaps not today but I would also be encouraging the friend to get Emma assessed - none of that sounds normal and isn’t necessarily a reflection of her parenting. Feel sorry for both the mum and Emma but not necessarily the dh!
It is definitely hard to gauge what is “normal” with your first.