On holiday with friend and her kids; it's not going well

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

For context, my DD (8)was diagnosed a few weeks ago with a (mild) neurological condition. As part of this she has good days and bad days - good days she’s a normal 8yo with a normal routine, bad days she get dizzy spells, nausea, headaches (usually triggered by noise or bright lights) and sleeps a lot. She’ll have a 1-2 hour nap and then 14-15 hours at night. I am essentially waiting to see if she gets over it on her own before considering treatment, on advice of her doctor.

We (me, DD and 4yo DS) are on week-long UK holiday with my friend and her kids who are the same age as mine, a couple of hours from where we live. My friend’s 8yo - lets call her Emma - is a sensitive child, always has been, my friend has discussed it with me before, but I never gave it too much thought, my own DD can certainly be sensitive. However we are now on day 4 of the holiday, and living in close quarters with them I’ve realised she’s VERY over sensitive and it’s affecting everyone’s enjoyment of the holiday, and more importantly my DD’s condition. Emma is NT.

A few examples
⁃ they were colouring the other day and Emma went slightly over the lines in her picture. She burst into tears, blamed her mum because her mum was talking to me, and cried for half an hour, chucking her paper in the bin
⁃ - they put a “play” on for us the other night and Emma jumbled up for words. She got really upset, sat on the floor sobbing with her arms folded and refused to finish the play, which annoyed DD the others as they wanted to show us.
⁃ She stubbed her toe on the sofa yesterday and had a totally OTT reaction. She grabbed her foot, rolled around on the floor and screamed the most high pitched scream I’ve ever heard, relentlessly, for 20 minutes. I had to take DD out the room as it brought on a headache. If you overheard you’d think she’d have been stabbed. Her toe was fine, no break and no bruise.
⁃ We went for a picnic yesterday and when we packed up we told the kids that they all had to carry something back and we gave Emma the (lightweight) picnic blanket to carry. After a couple of minutes of walking back to the lodge, and heard a shriek. We turned around and she was about 10m away sitting on the ground crying hysterically. She said it was because the blanket was too heavy then we all left her behind. My friend had to carry for uphill back to the lodge and she cried all the way.

It’s lots of little things all the time. As to not drip feed, my friend’s DH has said before (in front of my friend) he thinks Emma’s sensitivity is exacerbated by her mum babying her. I (secretly) agree - she carries her a lot because she “gets tired legs” - such as round the supermarket, or from a restaurant to the car, or out of someone’s house. She also apologises to her a lot where I don’t think it’s necessary - she apologised for “making” her go over the lines when colouring. She also lays with her every night til she falls asleep - singing a lullaby or scratching her back, for about 1-2 hours. Her 4yo goes to sleep alone! The last 3 nights I’ve looked forward to having a bottle of wine with my friend, but she doesn’t usually come down til 10pm from putting Emma to bed. She’s attempted making her fall asleep alone before but had little success.

Anyway DD has been quite good about Emma’s tantrums considering she hasn’t been well, and every day has been a “bad day” for her. But last night when DD started to feel sleepy around 6pm, and Emma wanted her to play a game. DD said no she just wanted to watch a bit of TV, and Emma has a strop and told her mum that DD was a “bad friend”. At that point DD burst into tears and said to me, in front of Emma, that this is a rubbish holiday and Emma is ruining it 😬 well, merry hell broke loose and I took DD to bed to try and diffuse the situation.

Me and my friend had a bottle of wine and a bit of a grumble last night about it all, she said she has a daily struggle with Emma being so sensitive and her DH goes out the house for hours at a time to sit in a car park because he can’t stand the noise.

When I woke DD up today she said that she feels sick all the time and wants to go home . TBH I feel the same way, I’m sick of the shrieking and whilst I feel sorry for my friend it’s making it an unenjoyable holiday.

I figure I have 4 options:
1. Go home - say DD just isn’t well enough (DS is very chilled out and likely wouldn’t mind this but I’m loathe to cut his holiday short)
2. Tell my friend how Emma’s behaviour is affecting DD and ask her to speak to her or step in before it escalates
3. Do more as a family of three separately from the other family and maybe just meet them for dinner
4. Say nothing, they’re kids and will get over it
WWYD?

Precisely because she had those issues, she needed very firm, very calm, very upbeat parenting.

^^
This sounds a lot like my ds. If you lose your cool, it’s all game over.

I'd do option 3, just find fun things to do during the days and come back for supper/bed. Your DC will thank you for it and feel they've had a bit of fun holiday after all.

And never go on holiday with them again!

@KeepingPlain

You knew children who were constantly miserable who’s parents didn’t bother parenting them? Did you phone SS?

Why? Because they got vanilla ice cream and not chocolate so decided to scream until their parents did as they were told? Yeah that's a great use of social services time.

No, because you knew they were constantly miserable, even on nice days when any other child would have been happy to have an ice cream and their parents ‘didn’t parent them’. And for every time you saw them and they were screaming, miserable and unhappy over trivial things, and their parents ‘didn’t parent them’. You’re an adult, why didn’t you help them?

I would do 3. I guess none of her paren5 exactly the same, and get things wrong, so I wouldn’t even think about criticising emma’s behaviour to your friend, because it won’t go down well, and she may well retaliate with her feelings on your dd. I just feel sorry for your DS. The holiday seems to be focused around both girls and their needs.

I’d choose option 3. Have some days just the 3 of you and meet up for dinner, why should you and your children miss out on a holiday through another’s child’s behaviour. Make the most of the days you have left with your own children.

I know an ‘Emma’ and it’s very tiring and trying being in their company.

No, because you knew they were constantly miserable, even on nice days when any other child would have been happy to have an ice cream and their parents ‘didn’t parent them’. And for every time you saw them and they were screaming, miserable and unhappy over trivial things, and their parents ‘didn’t parent them’. You’re an adult, why didn’t you help them?

Because 1. They were pretending to be miserable to get their own way, screaming accomplished that and 2. I was a child myself. Why would I phone social services for other kids that are just demanding attention? They weren't miserable, they got everything they wanted by misbehaving. They would drop and cry to get attention or if something wasn't going their way.

If you actually think that's normal behaviour and normal parenting, you're part of the problem.

@crackofdoom

I know an Emma too, except that he is a boy. He may get a diagnosis in time; at the moment the prime suspects are ASD/ anxiety. Problem is, his mum does the same as Emma's mum; constantly apologising, caving in to unreasonable demands; always making last minute changes to accommodate him.

Thing is, I am autistic, and I don't know how to tell her that, if he is on the spectrum, all this last minute fannying around and constant changes of plan are literally torturing him. Autistic kids need rules and boundaries more than NT children do.

Is the boy's mum actively seeking a diagnosis, i.e. in the middle of the process? If she is, and accepts it as a possibility, then it may be easier for you to say to her "hey, I just wanted to give you an idea, as an autistic person, of how I would want this to be handled - it may work for your son, it may not, but if he is also autistic, then having boundaries and expected outcomes are usually less anxiety-inducing."

Or something like that.
If she's not in that place yet though, then I don't think you can say anything because she might get upset at the idea.

Oh and I was the parent whose friends and family were convinced that I was ruining dd by carrying her when she seemed far too old for such treatment.

Until the day when I was the parent sat in a room with an expert on genetic disorders who gently hinted that my attempts at forcing her to "push against the pain" might already have caused permanent and irremediable joint damage.

So yes, I couldn't win that one. The reason I can live with myself over the physical damage is that I know I did do my best to help her to cope mentally. I worked hard not to let my own panic and anxiety interact with hers, to reassure her that she could cope with everyday situations and to show that I still had high and clear standards for her actual behaviour. And not least to show that I was always aware of the needs of other people, including her friends.

Emma's mum could have done a great job here modelling consideration for the OPs dd.

Whether the behaviour is through accidental parenting or neurodiversity it's clear Emma's mum is struggling, I feel sorry for all of you!

Often parents' "weak" looking parenting in this situation is because they've learned over the years what minimises the unwanted behaviour. I have a very sensitive child poss autistic and while I wouldn't apologise for the colouring thing, if I came down harshly on him, the resulting tantrum could be twice as long and have repercussions for days / weeks / months, so I've learned to handle it and set boundaries as gently as possible.

It does sound like Emma's mum needs help doing the same but it's bloody hard, and the sort of crap advice you often get would be to take her toys away, do time out or otherwise punish, which for a sensitive child would make things 100 times worse.

OP your daughter is the same age as Emma and she has only just got a diagnosis, before the diagnosis do you think people judged her because she needed lots of sleep and couldn't cope with noise? You don't have to put up with Emma but don't judge her or her mother, you don't know what the issue is but you know they are having a tough time. Go home if you can't cope, try No 3 if you think you can.

I hope your daughter and Emma will be OK.

@occa

I'd do option 3, just find fun things to do during the days and come back for supper/bed. Your DC will thank you for it and feel they've had a bit of fun holiday after all.

And never go on holiday with them again!

... Yes, separate the rest of your holiday so you avoid being there for all the time Emma is out of bed

If that is not practical, then go home

The cause of Emma's problems are not your business and are impossible for you to change,
but it is your job to try to stop them damaging your DD's holiday or health

I’d combine 2 and 3. Tell her how it’s affecting your daughter and your holiday so you’ll be sewerage for the remained but will meet for dinners on the evening if she wishes.
Or go home.

Just go home. It doesn't matter why Emma is behaving like this, or of its her fault or her mothers fault or she has an undiagnosed condition. All of this is out of your control. You and your daughter are having a shit time so do what's best for you. A grown up might be prepared to put up with it for the sake of appearances but your daughter's not 100% so don't make her take the brunt of it. If your friend asks just say your daughter is having too many bad days and you need to put her needs first. If she asks if it's Emmas behaviour just say that that is not your business you are more focused on your own child's needs at the moment.

I wouldn’t have the patience to deal with Emma personally so I’d go home. Can’t be doing with screeching kids at the best of times.

3 for another day or so, with low interaction activities like watching a film for the remaining together time, then 1 if it’s still hideous-even if there’s ‘only’ a day left.

"Tell her how it’s affecting your daughter and your holiday so you’ll be sewerage for the remained"

That's going too far!

I’m most interested in how you know that Emma is NT. Do you just mean the absence of a diagnosis? Or do you mean has been assessed and declared NT? My child has a diagnosis but our friends don’t know, they might suspect, they might think he’s just high maintenance.

So I think it’s entirely possible Emma is not NT, and also unreasonable that you took your DD on a multi family holiday while she’s clearly quite poorly. Just a clash of needs as far as I can see it

I'd try number 3 but expect Emma will kick up an almighty fuss, if she does then go for 1.

All Emma's actions seem to be about achieving 'look at me!' combined with having her wishes first and foremost in family life. Don’t do 2, would be a disaster for the holiday and an end to your friendship.

I'd do 3 for the next day, and cut losses and go home if it's still not working. I wouldn't say anything, it won't do much good.

DD burst into tears and said to me, in front of Emma, that this is a rubbish holiday and Emma is ruining it... well, merry hell broke loose and I took DD to bed to try and diffuse the situation.

Children tell it like it is. Poor Emma. She needs to learn to consider the impact of her actions on others. Her parents are letting her grow up unlikable and lacking in resilience. Other adults and children will not make the allowances for her that they will. Agree with pp who say that she may not be NT. Her parents should seek help and advice so they can parent her appropriately to help her cope with everyday life a bit better.

Emma’s dad sounds a bit of a dead loss though! Leaving the Mum to do all the parenting while he buggers off “to escape the noise”... and then criticises the Mum for babying her! I bet the Mum wishes she could bugger off to a car park.

Completely agree! I feel sorry for Emma's mum. She's probably worn down by it. How is she supposed to make positive changes if she's exhausted and unsupported by the other parent?

I other thing I wondered about was Emma’s dad in all this? The man who goes to car parks rather than engage. And who has Emma learnt to blame her mother from? Just a thought.

I wouldn't be so sure Emma is NT, huge numbers of girls slip through the cracks because asd assessment is very much based upon the male presentation, things can be much more subtle with girls and they are great at masking.
My own dd was only diagnosed at 16, she was relatively normal until she went to high school where she fell apart as she could no longer mask.
When things have calmed down have a chat with your friend, tell her to look at therapeutic parenting which is very gentle and empathy based and is great for sensitive children.

Go home, secretly Emma’s (ridiculous) mum must be wanting the same.

I see you’re the poster who thinks parents are actually just desperate for kids to be diagnosed with anything to excuse their behaviour - which makes me think you’re either not very bright, or someone who doesn’t have much experience with kids with any kind of issue. Which do you think it is?

At the moment I think you're not very bright. I've never said all kids are fine and it's bad parenting. Some kids do have autism, dyspraxia etc. But some kids, like the sounds of this one, are just parented badly. It's not neglect, it's fussing over them too much and giving in to their every demand, simply to keep the peace. At some point, that child is going to have to learn the word no. When is that going to be I wonder? She's already 8 and still gets fussed over far too much. She needs to learn to not blame others for issues, or resort to name calling if she doesn't get her way. When is she going to learn this if not from her parents? Is it her teachers job? Who's job is it? I would think it's her parents, but her mum won't do it and her dad just walks out. She's screwed basically.

Seriously OP...Emma is NOT ‘NT’...regardless of what her mum might have said, or what you might have ‘decided for yourself’...there is absolutely nothing NT about her behaviour.