On holiday with friend and her kids; it's not going well

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

For context, my DD (8)was diagnosed a few weeks ago with a (mild) neurological condition. As part of this she has good days and bad days - good days she’s a normal 8yo with a normal routine, bad days she get dizzy spells, nausea, headaches (usually triggered by noise or bright lights) and sleeps a lot. She’ll have a 1-2 hour nap and then 14-15 hours at night. I am essentially waiting to see if she gets over it on her own before considering treatment, on advice of her doctor.

We (me, DD and 4yo DS) are on week-long UK holiday with my friend and her kids who are the same age as mine, a couple of hours from where we live. My friend’s 8yo - lets call her Emma - is a sensitive child, always has been, my friend has discussed it with me before, but I never gave it too much thought, my own DD can certainly be sensitive. However we are now on day 4 of the holiday, and living in close quarters with them I’ve realised she’s VERY over sensitive and it’s affecting everyone’s enjoyment of the holiday, and more importantly my DD’s condition. Emma is NT.

A few examples
⁃ they were colouring the other day and Emma went slightly over the lines in her picture. She burst into tears, blamed her mum because her mum was talking to me, and cried for half an hour, chucking her paper in the bin
⁃ - they put a “play” on for us the other night and Emma jumbled up for words. She got really upset, sat on the floor sobbing with her arms folded and refused to finish the play, which annoyed DD the others as they wanted to show us.
⁃ She stubbed her toe on the sofa yesterday and had a totally OTT reaction. She grabbed her foot, rolled around on the floor and screamed the most high pitched scream I’ve ever heard, relentlessly, for 20 minutes. I had to take DD out the room as it brought on a headache. If you overheard you’d think she’d have been stabbed. Her toe was fine, no break and no bruise.
⁃ We went for a picnic yesterday and when we packed up we told the kids that they all had to carry something back and we gave Emma the (lightweight) picnic blanket to carry. After a couple of minutes of walking back to the lodge, and heard a shriek. We turned around and she was about 10m away sitting on the ground crying hysterically. She said it was because the blanket was too heavy then we all left her behind. My friend had to carry for uphill back to the lodge and she cried all the way.

It’s lots of little things all the time. As to not drip feed, my friend’s DH has said before (in front of my friend) he thinks Emma’s sensitivity is exacerbated by her mum babying her. I (secretly) agree - she carries her a lot because she “gets tired legs” - such as round the supermarket, or from a restaurant to the car, or out of someone’s house. She also apologises to her a lot where I don’t think it’s necessary - she apologised for “making” her go over the lines when colouring. She also lays with her every night til she falls asleep - singing a lullaby or scratching her back, for about 1-2 hours. Her 4yo goes to sleep alone! The last 3 nights I’ve looked forward to having a bottle of wine with my friend, but she doesn’t usually come down til 10pm from putting Emma to bed. She’s attempted making her fall asleep alone before but had little success.

Anyway DD has been quite good about Emma’s tantrums considering she hasn’t been well, and every day has been a “bad day” for her. But last night when DD started to feel sleepy around 6pm, and Emma wanted her to play a game. DD said no she just wanted to watch a bit of TV, and Emma has a strop and told her mum that DD was a “bad friend”. At that point DD burst into tears and said to me, in front of Emma, that this is a rubbish holiday and Emma is ruining it 😬 well, merry hell broke loose and I took DD to bed to try and diffuse the situation.

Me and my friend had a bottle of wine and a bit of a grumble last night about it all, she said she has a daily struggle with Emma being so sensitive and her DH goes out the house for hours at a time to sit in a car park because he can’t stand the noise.

When I woke DD up today she said that she feels sick all the time and wants to go home . TBH I feel the same way, I’m sick of the shrieking and whilst I feel sorry for my friend it’s making it an unenjoyable holiday.

I figure I have 4 options:
1. Go home - say DD just isn’t well enough (DS is very chilled out and likely wouldn’t mind this but I’m loathe to cut his holiday short)
2. Tell my friend how Emma’s behaviour is affecting DD and ask her to speak to her or step in before it escalates
3. Do more as a family of three separately from the other family and maybe just meet them for dinner
4. Say nothing, they’re kids and will get over it
WWYD?

I'd put money on Emma being hypermobile and or dyspraxic (they often go hand in hand). This would explain her getting tired legs all the time, feeling overwhelmed falling behind carrying the picnic blanket, stumbling over her words, stubbing her toe, over reacting to the colouring in accident (because she was probably concentrating so hard to do it but still messed it up). If you are hypermobile it means you have to put more effort in to do every day basic tasks, just walking a short distance is twice as much effort, you get worn out much more easily. This would also be a root cause of her low self esteem and subsequent over sensitive nature because she is probably not very good at a lot of physical things. I imagine with your day trips and walking and activities and maybe swimming etc Emma will be feeling worn out and yet doesn't have an obvious reason like your daughter who is probably naturally better at things like remembering words to songs and plays, running, cartwheels, dancing and colouring and who is gently being asked all the time if she feels tired and needs a rest etc because of her recent condition.

I really don't think it is fair for posters to blame mum for Emma's behaviour. There are some really horrible accusations here. If she settles Emma to bed but not the younger sister then that is pretty solid evidence that she is instinctively parenting on need and not pandering. Also she may be more likely to pander to her (such as saying sorry about the colouring) because she was thinking of everyone else and trying to stop the meltdown as soon as possible, she was probably mid conversation with you and felt torn between a long drawn out battle with her in front of you or picking her battle and calling her down. How she parents publicly on holiday is not necessarily indicative of what she does the majority of the time. If she's worn out and stressed about the behaviour she was probably just trying to keep her cool.

How she parents publicly on holiday is not necessarily indicative of what she does the majority of the time.

Feel very seen here. Used to holiday with parents, 3 siblings + partners and 3 NT nephews. Working desperately to keep things together and not letting dd mess it up for everyone- and then getting judged for it.

Wouldn't put money on anything regarding Emma, but that post certainly brought back memories.

The other child has very obvious anxiety. I’d probably start doing a few activities separately.

I've read most of this with a huge lump in my throat.

I have an 'Emma'. My DD was hyper sensitive to EVERYTHING. She would cry, wail, collapse with hysterics if anything went wrong. I walked around on egg shells knowing I was being watched and judged. If shw wasn't wailing she was miserable. She was a total control freak - had to control EVERYONE and EVERYTHING.
Massive anxieties.
I can just imagine her screaming for 20 minutes over a stubbed toe or having a 'do' over carrying a picnic blanket.
In public I often seemed to 'pander' to her because I just didn't want her to start.
I was totally aware that no one, not my friends, my mum, my step mum, etc among the adults I knew liked her.
I was on my knees with trying to second guess her moods etc. My SIL commented to my Step Brother that I was a woman on the edge and needed help - that was when she had known me for 3 days.
When she was 7 we started the process of getting her assessed - she was spending hours at school crying under tables and growling at people......
The Ed psych spent 10 minutes in her company and stated - 'This is not a NT child and I am surpised anyone has tried to tell you other wise' (YEARS of HV, teachers etc telling me I 'just needed to be firm, she'll soon learn')
DD was DXed with an ASC and ADHD. She has issues with her joints that are often comorbid with ASCs. She feels and responds to pain differently to others and her joints often ache.
My son also has an ASC but they need to be parented totally differently - DS needs a total routine whereas with DD we have to make sure she feels in control.

So, I feel for your friend. I was the parent of the child no one liked, the child that was 'a spoilt brat who just needed to be made to behave'. I look back on those early years and I feel the same sense of panic that she would 'kick off'

DD is nearly 13 and most of the time she is an absolute joy. She's quirky and funny, well mannered, helpful, caring and I love spending time with her. We parent differently to others - there's lots of closed choices going on and lots of adjustments to be made.

I think there are lots of assumptions here. Everything the OP suggests Emma's mum is trying her best to mitigate her daughter's impact, if she directly challenged her behaviour or refused to carry her it would have definitely escalated things in the short term and not have helped anyone's holiday fun. Her father's view of pandering should be ignored if he can't hack parenting her himself. I don't think it's clear whether or not she's not NT and either way her mum needs help.

Emma's behaviour sounds annoying but not worth abandoning a holiday or friendship for. I'd suggest option 3, and gently say over a g&t to her mum later that you can see she's working bloody hard, and perhaps she look into to get her daughter checked over.

I think it’s unfair on your ex the holiday should be cut short, can you speak to your kids and ask would they like to either a go home or b) we do something nice together tomorrow (you and the kids). Personally I would push for this. Take them to the beach/swimming or similar. although I’m sure Emma will be against the very concept

(3) would be ideal; otherwise (1).

I very much doubt that Emma's problems are due to her mother 'babying' her; more likely, her mother is responding (helpfully or unhelpfully) to her behaviour. She may have an undiagnosed neurological problem herself, or a mental health problem, or just be 'going through a stage' to use an over-used but often accurate expression. And lockdown probably hasn't helped.

Her physical health should definitely be checked, however. It is not really normal for an 8-year-old to ask to be carried because her legs hurt, or to make this sort of fuss about carrying a relatively light object. Nor can this usually be explained as being a 'drama queen' -perhaps the 'you are a bad friend' episode might be explained in that way, but not the other aspects. An 8-year-old drama queen would be more likely to boast about her physical abilities and demand admiration for real or imagined achievements. I think that both your child and Emma may have invisible health problems, which sometimes clash with each other.

At any rate, I would not criticize Emma to her mother, beyond suggesting that it might be a good idea to have her leg pains, etc. checked up medically. But I would reduce your child's exposure to what must be a stressful situation for her.

Emma sounds like she has anxiety, I feel sorry for her being labelled as a drama queen.
My ds is also labelled as a drama queen and there are people in his own family that will not accept anxiety is a condition.
I think you should do a couple of bits away from Emma, let her just have some time out and just “be” for a while.

At one point in primary I had time and volunteered a lot with a few classes. the amount of tagged asd children was horrendous. And I would bet half of them would have just needed proper parenting, not a diagnosis that let's them off without ever learning to be responsible for their actions

Ah you're one of those who thinks it's easy to get an autism assessment right? You're lucky in that ignorance I guess.

God help Emma when she is in a class of 30.

Why would she need to be assessed?? She is just a spoiled brat! She needs discipline and consequences

What makes you think kids with SEN don't get discipline and consequences?

Read the OP and came on to say that I don't think Emma is NT after all , but can see others beat me to it. Doesn't make it easy to holiday with her, but easier to step back a bit possibly.

Honestly if I were your friend I would not be going on holiday with a friend knowing my child was going to behave that way.

I would do option 3 for both your kids sake - you've taken them both on holiday and they could still get a lot out of it if they had a bit of space. It would be disappointing for DS to go home but I would consider it if DD was still ill after a couple of days mainly just the three of you.

@Pumperthepumper

Em.....in case she’s not just a spoiled brat? In case she has underlying issues?

Not being goady, but how can you actually tell the difference?

I would go with 3 and see if this makes things more manageable

ASD presents very differently in girls than the typical portrayal of ASD in boys.
She could well have dyspraxia, ASD, sensory processing difficulties or a mixture
Emma must be very sad and anxious and her Mum at her wits end.
Although it can't be easy for you either. especially with your daughter's additional needs
It may be well talking to your friend about a possible assessment for her little girl in a gentle non judgemental way.
I have worked with children like Emma and a diagnosis will make her and her families lives so much easier.
Strategies can be put in place to help her and people will be more tolerant.

God that child sounds horrific. There are FAR too many children like this nowadays, being babied by , usually, their mother, long beyond the age it would be appropriate.

I wouldn’t be able to refrain from giving the other mother some home truths about Emma and HER parenting, before heading home for the last few days, so that your daughter gets the chance to enjoy herself.

Well you sound nice @Starksforthewin.

From the Dyspraxia foundation:
By 7 years old
Problems may include:

Difficulties in adapting to a structured school routine
Difficulties in Physical Education lessons
Slow at dressing. Unable to tie shoe laces
Barely legible handwriting
Immature drawing and copying skills
Limited concentration and poor listening skills
Literal use of language
Inability to remember more than two or three instructions at once
Slow completion of class work
Continued high levels of motor activity
Hand flapping or clapping when excited
Tendency to become easily distressed and emotional
Problems with co-ordinating a knife and fork
Inability to form relationships with other children
Sleeping difficulties, including wakefulness at night and nightmares
Reporting of physical symptoms, such as migraine, headaches, feeling sick

Private talk with dd and do what she wants. Make it u to ds once home.
Consider letting the friendship go.

I'd go home. just want to add though that kids can be tricky and you don't really know what is causing the child's behaviour. As a parent of non-identical twins I think I can confidently say that so much is down to genes - my two are completely different. One is naturally far more anxious than the other. Wouldn't want to stick a label on it, but how would you feel if you asked the mother to have a word with the child about behaviour and there's subsequently a diagnosis of autism which would explain the over-sensitivity and total inability to deal with the unpredictable? Even if there's nothing like that some kids take longer to be able regulate their moods and emotions. So I'd say cut the holiday short if it's not working out and leave it at that.

[quote Wolfgirrl]@Pumperthepumper

Em.....in case she’s not just a spoiled brat? In case she has underlying issues?

Not being goady, but how can you actually tell the difference?[/quote]
Get them assessed! Why wouldn’t you? Even spoiled, overindulged children have good days, enjoy days out and holidays.

@JeffVaderneedsatray so sorry for your daughter and it also made me sad to read about Emma and your DD. When I was little, early 50s, I was the sad little 4 year old, I'm not sure why but being replaced by a little brother (the much wanted boy and I had older sisters) suffering from migraine (totally dismissed by GP) my mother was constantly told I was putting it on for attention. At 6 I was in my 6th home and 3rd school which I don't think helped. I can remember getting beatings, with a belt, for kicking off like Emma, it was definitely nothing to do with parents being soft. I look at photos of me as a little one, well I don't as I ripped them up but when I did all I could see was a very unhappy little girl.

I feel so sorry for all the sad children being judged.