Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

I am not sure it is helpful to be honest.

A cluster of fucked up people
This phrase is so very apt and such a useful reworking of the term 'clusterfuck'

Op I'm sorry I haven't read the entire thread as it's quite long. However please take a look at the stately homes thread it's a great place to get support. You are also so far into the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt). Once you come out of this you will see everything for what it truly is. Your father is the abuser, your mother the enabler. I'm sorry but your mum is just as bad. She let this abuse happen, she is not innocent. She chose this life for herself and for you. Should could have left but decides to stay. And before you say it's not easy I know, I ended up in a woman's refuge myself. My parents were and are still abusive. As you say he is better and my parents have mellowed too. However their behaviour is still abusive to a certain extent. I will not tolerant any abuse towards my son, please for your kids sake keep them away from both your parents. What your dad is saying is no where near right. They did not ask for this and you can protect them.

Do not feel guilty about your mother. As I've said it's her choice. Try to rebuild your confidence and boundaries. It's taken me a few years to build mine. It's not easy and very easy to fall backwards.

Hi folks

Can we please be careful not to steer into blaming territory? We've made some deletions already and we'd like that to be the end of it.
If there's one thing we could all do with, it's a bit of support.

@Friendsoftheearth

I have now found a very good therapist, thanks to you all.

I have arranged to see my mother alone when the dc go back to school. At no time is he going to be coming near any of us, and I am including myself in this, I have been through enough already. I owe him nothing.

That’s good. Yes stay in contact with your mother for your own sanity if you need to. But accept she’s just not able to give you everything you need. Some parents just can’t. Have no contact with him, if your mother can’t accept that she’ll have to lump it. Your DC will be ok, if they’ve not had much of a relationship with them they won’t miss it. Not in the long run.

In my 15 years on MN i think i have reported one or two posts. I am appalled by askin's posts. I have reported you.

[quote Monkeynuts18]@OliviaBenson

I had an almost identical situation in my childhood and teenage years and really second your advice. My mum was badly abused by my dad, she was a victim. But now, both my parents - and particularly my mum - completely gaslight me. It was all my fault. I was such a difficult teenager. My mum asked me if I wanted her to divorce my dad and I said no, so I can’t complain. It wasn’t as bad as I’m making out. I’m so ungrateful for everything they did for me. All my achievements are down to them.

I don’t want to victim-blame, but it’s perfectly possible for someone to be both a victim and an abuser - it happens all the time.[/quote]
Thanks - and likewise, my mum asked me the divorce question and get reminded of that all the time. Of course as a young child you don't want your parents to split up! What a thing to do to a child.

@LilyMumsnet

Hi folks

Can we please be careful not to steer into blaming territory? We've made some deletions already and we'd like that to be the end of it.
If there's one thing we could all do with, it's a bit of support.

@LilyMumsnet there are still some horrendous victim blaming posts remaining. Are you still in the middle of doing this as there are several that need to go

Sending love and strength to you OP. I read this in tears yesterday and held my little boy even closer last night. You are a strong woman and a wonderful mother to have kept your children away from this monster all these years.

I am sorry to say that I agree that you need to cut contact with you mother too. She didn't do her best for you (you said she would say this), she didn't do her best for you at all. Please remember this.

Sending love

Someone had to be sacrificed
and of course the smallest weakest person, a female child ...so much simpler to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the small powerless person who has already been crushed and silenced, who has been trained to trust those who exploit and abuse her.
Someone has to be sacrificed and she is just the easiest victim.

I have got a picnic packed for today, and after yesterday I spent a long time posting I feel I owe my dds a day devoted to them.
I will drop in later, but I just wanted you to say thank you, such amazing kindness on here and help. My new therapist contacted me just now, I will start as soon as possible with her, and see how it goes. Love to all you

heff People don't stay small forever.
Have a good day everyone.

I am thrilled to hear this OP. Enjoy your picnic with your girls and look forward to your future

People don't stay small forever
Indeed and in my head I say to them, 'come on folks did you not realise that I would eventually see exactly what you did, you totally had it coming ...'

Have a lovely picnic, OP, all the best with everything.

I think you're dd have realised your mum was complicit in the awful childhood you had, they don't want to play happy families.
I hope therapy will show you your mum also deserves blame.

I think mum is minimising like crazy. Pretending it wasn't that bad. Haven't been in the stately homes thread but I think probably like that, you were fed and went to school kind of thing. Plus she no doubt felt like she couldn't stop him without getting beaten up too. Which is true.

Now she wants them to put it all behind them as people so often do and for the OP to forget about it. It's very weak and self serving. The poor me narrative that so many people just love.

And in the DV world there is unquestioning acceptance of the Wife/victim as being without fault, as anything else is victim blaming. To suggest that staying and allowing it to happen is anything other than what she felt she had to do is taboo.

But people can be cowards. They want everything for nothing, everything to be easy, and no consequences of hard choices to make. They don't want to do what they are scared of or what is unpleasant. Understandably.

Women in particular seem conditioned to not want to just do what they have to rather than what they want to when it comes to romance. They pine, and wait, and wish, and talk and hope when actually they should just say 'fuck you I'm out'.

I think it's a biological/child rearing thing. That extreme loyalty is what keeps you there when kids are a nightmare. Then they can feel sorry for themselves and tell their friends he's awful and get sympathy instead of either putting their foot down or leaving.

There's not really an answer. Some people are braver/less tolerant than others. Her own shit childhood may have made her that way. But I think that we should be bringing it into the light, and questioning it rather than just saying there, there.

It's only when things become unacceptable people stop doing them. Or when there are very very serious consequences.

It's only when things become unacceptable people stop doing them. Or when there are very very serious consequences

this is all too true. They need to be applied first to the OP's father though. there seems almost as much hate for the mum as the dad on this thread.

@SeaEagleFeather yes I agree.. the comment was more about DV in general not about mum. It's a very complex situation - she was doing the best she could with what she had, in her mind.

I think going NC with her would be painful for the OP right now but I also think that there needs to be a proper conversation. And of course once you start thinking about that stuff different things come up that you had packed away in your mind.

Honestly, I am totally intolerant of the “Poor Mum” bullshit. She was an adult who knew exactly what was going on under her roof. She was complicit and she coerced her daughter into enabling her abuse to continue when she lied to protect her abuser. Her mother allowed her daughter to be abused to give herself a break.
*I am also a survivor of childhood abuse with the golden son and unpicked my family dynamics early. My mother was the violent one, and my father played the helpless victim. Looking back now I suspect he was the puppeteer. They are dead now and I am so glad they have no way of manipulating my kids.

I am still trying to sort out someone to talk to, and I am keen not to make the same mistake as before. I have found someone but she will be accredited with BACP next year, I understand that she hasn't done enough hours just yet looking at their website, but she does have some experience in this area? Should I really be talking to someone that is already accredited?
What a minefield finding the right person is.

I have no other family other than my parents and two siblings.
My father was like yours but unlike you I resent my mum for staying. I tried very hard to maintain a relationship because I felt sorry for her and I wanted a mother.
However as my dd got older my father started to start on her, saying racist things to try to brainwash her to hate certain cultures, calling people fat cows in the street etc my mum actually told me he'd pushed my nephew into a wall on purpose because he was annoying my father (nephew was 5 and in their sole care at the time) my father also called him gay over and over because he like wearing my mums handbags at 3yo!!

Me and siblings are all so damaged that when I told my sibling about nephew they went against me and took parents side saying I must be lying.

They also act like my parents are gods and can do no wrong.
So in the end after my mother continued to laugh whilst my father taught my dd racist rants and made comments about how fat she would get if she ate too much cake etc I remembered how that made me feel. And questioned if anything was worth keeping in my family that was worth passing those feelings onto my dd. FWIW it made me the least racist person ever because it upset me so much but my brother has turned into my dad so I didn't want to risk this.

I've been nc for 1.5 years. I am sad all the time about having no mother but I think it's still better this way. My mum is an adult, all of my siblings and me have offered free place to stay ie her own apartment in a better place but she has refused. That is her choice. She didn't make the difficult choice to leave so I had to. I think you'd be better off making that too. And be prepared for absolutely nothing to change except you're no longer in touch.

If you can't go nc then your mother would have to agree to meet you away from father. If she doesn't you probably should realise where you stand between your mother and dds.

I think you're dd have realised your mum was complicit in the awful childhood you had

They are clear eyed bright girls with the benefit of a straightforward childhood, I am sure that is true. They are civil, distant and unreachable is the general state of things towards my mother.

floral Your post is shocking to read, and you are so right about so many things. Who could blame you for not wanting your child to learn such awful vile things, almost as if your father is continuing the family line of whatever warped values he holds, and projecting them on to your child.

I am sorry your siblings were complicit. No loss if you will many more years of the same thing, as they transfer the same cycle to your little nephews and nieces. You are well out of it!

I have been nc with both of my parents for many years, and it is hard going at times. I now have my mother in our lives some of the time, but the love and specialness of closeness with her has gone floral I just can't feel the same about her. Something inside me has died, so even when I see her I would not say it was remotely rewarding. So I never get that feeling of being loved, or anything from her really. I feel drained at the end, that is the overriding feeling. So I don't how much you are missing. If anything.

I miss having the mother I thought I had, and I think you might be the same. to you. Hard choices we make. Who knew parenting would be quite this hard.

You can give your mother the option of coming on a day out while you pick her up, and keep in contact over FaceTime.

Of you can call him out very assertively every single time and really stand up to him so that he backs off. Bullies often do back down. He’s just an old man with horrible mean traits. But sounds like this is too triggering for you so the only way is to never see him. Your mum can make a choice.