To be wary of a man who's never been in love at 38

[hellotesting123123]

I'm dating someone for the past few months who is kind and considerate. We have great chemistry and it feels like things are progressing nicely - he's introducing me to friends, talking about our relationship as if it will be long term, is consistent with contact etc. I find him super considerate, good at pulling his weight on practical stuff, very very handsome, and just nice to be around.

I actually posted about him before (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3987311-AIBU-to-consider-dumping-someone-because-of-their-job-prospects?pg=8) and it turned into a conversation which was more about his ability to commit, given he is 38 and doesn't seem to have had a relationship for longer than a year. People also pointed out that I should have an explicit conversation about kids with him because it is playing on my mind, and was the real issue behind me worrying about his financial situation and ability to be in a job etc.

Some people also felt he had dicked about a previous woman who was 36 and anxious about fertility (I am also 36 and anxious about fertility!).

So, we had a conversation yesterday where this ex came up and he said that she had asked him to commit to a timeline for having kids of a year, and he had said that if the relationship was in the right place then yes he would consider it. He said that they had talked at cross purposes and she had taken that as more of a commitment than it was - he felt that they needed to see how the relationship progressed first. He then described her being anxious and him feeling under pressure, and her getting very emotional a lot at what she saw as his lack of feeling. From his side, he felt he couldn't 'manufacture feelings'.

They broke up 11 months later - he said the final straw was when she said she was freezing her eggs, and he had said that he was supportive of that, and she took that to mean that he didn't care / didn't want to be involved. He said he just had no clue what a big deal it was and that she needed his support, and he would have been there for her more if she had told him how anxious it was making her.

That then led to me talking about the fact that I'm doing egg freezing and am also anxious about fertility, and that I didn't want to be with someone who doesn't want children. He said he does want them, but will also be okay if he doesn't have them, and that he doesn't feel the same pressure. But that if I have a timeline, that's okay and we should talk about it. I said two years, and he said that sounded like a good amount of time. However, Im now super anxious - what's the point in a timeline in a way - just puts pressure on the situation, and I don't want him to read this as he can just stay with me for two years and then let me go cus he's not 'quite ready'.

We also spoke about living together. He said he had never done this, and asked how you manage it, and I shared my experiences. He said it sounded pretty nice, and I think he is thinking about this for us soon. I am thinking about moving to Bristol and he has indicated he would be open to doing this too for instance.

He also admitted in this conversation that he has never 'loved' anyone. I think he only started having relationships in his 30s, and they've mostly been around a year long. Is this a giant red flag?

The thing is, I actually quite secure with him. He is not direct about it (yet), but I get the sense he sees a future with me. He's very physically affectionate, and even though he definitely has issues expressing verbal affection (I do a little but not to the same extent), I think it's clear he really likes me. He shows this through actions, and not words. I used to need words but the older I get the more I just want someone that will pull their weight and show they care.

But I don't want to be with him for a year and then discover he still hasn't developed love for me, and I can feel myself holding back because of this.

But then I wonder whether this 'love' thing is a bit of a misnomer - everyone has different ideas of what constitutes love, and mine has really changed over the past ten years. Used to think it was the butterflies stuff; now I feel like it's something that grows over time and that you build together. I have a feeling he is the same, and will be a slow grower, which on the one hand I am comfy with but then the needy, anxious part of me worries it will never happen and wants him to adore me NOW.

Sorry, this isn't very coherent. I guess I'm just weighing up whether this worth continuing.

38 and hasn't loved anyone. Has already potentially messed around someone who was 36 and anxious for kids. Should I just get out now?

Oh he's also said he's open to talking about this more, and that we should again soon, because I said these things difficult to talk about and articulate clearly in. He said he totally understands the need for clarity at this age. He also said we can / should talk more about the love thing. So he seems open to mature conversation.

Just tagging people that were particularly helpful in the last post in case they want to comment here: @ellisandra @thickfast @thehoneybadger @frenchpastry @jinglinghellsbells

Should a fairly new relationship be making you question so many things?

I’d be very wary of hitching my waggon to someone who drifts like he does. He seems to be half-hearted about everything - no drive or ambition at all. Happy to maybe go along with whatever’s easiest.

The old saying ‘if it’s not a hell yes, it’s a hell no’ springs to mind.

Did he really 'dick about' this person who was 36?

"He said he just had no clue what a big deal it was and that she needed his support, and he would have been there for her more if she had told him how anxious it was making her."

That doesn't sound like "dicking someone about". That sounds like a equal communication issue, perhaps as much her side as his.

He sounds considerate to the point that he's encouraging further conversation with you. He sounds like he's open enough to explain how he learned from previous relationships. He's fully aware of your desire for children and hasn't said no despite this earlyish stage you're both at.

I'm politely suggesting you're overthinking things. Don't make him verbally write a 28-page proposal for your life together with addendums, answered queries, and reference points to previous failed projects.

If other posters come on here and say "bin him he's no good, he's afraid of commitment"...fine, no worries, that's fair viewpoint also.

but where will you be at this point? You'll have lost someone you clearly like, but perhaps not for the reasons you'd think you would.

And then you'll be back on the slip road again, trying to furiously accelerate everything up to the speed that leads to family creation, only this time a year on and a year closer etc.

Lots of short term relationships feels like his partners have given it a go but given him up as a hopeless case. It does sound like he strung his previous partner along and, despite you hoping for a better outcome, looks like he is stringing you along too. You say you sense that he sees a future with you but why hasn’t he said that he actually does see a future. He sounds like a dead loss OP, you are already spending to much time assuming the best with no concrete basis for this. Talk is cheap, he knows this, why don’t you?

Thanks @juniperfather, I actually think that's a really balanced answer.

He has mentioned a few times things he's learnt from making mistakes in previous relationships; to be honest, none of them are terrible at all - things like being late for someone's birthday dinner because he was behind in getting the present sorted (something I'd do!) etc.

I definitely think he has a bit of an avoidant style, and that he seems to have chosen anxious women in the past who have told him he isn't enough / they need more affection etc. But I'm not really feeling that, even though I have a tendency to be avoidant myself. I just think he's shy and needs a bit of encouragement. I don't mind giving it, as I feel we have a nice relaxed feeling between us where I feel wanted etc.

However I don't want to stay with the wrong one just because I don't want to get on the 'slip road' again. Feeling decidedly jaded with dating at the mo!

Voted yabu because I get the vague feeling you are adjusting your expectations to suit this man, when I don't think you should. Love shouldn't grow slowly in the way you describe. During the first few months you should be absolutely infatuated with each other. You should be feeling adored right now! Imo what grows from that is the deeper summer spend your life together love. Maybe if you really like him you could give him a bit longer but personally I have a bad feeling about his history and attitude. Think you deserve better.

Sorry, that random summer shouldn't be there!

You want kids...

He doesn't....

he says he does but isn't worried if he never does. Sounds like that's his way of telling you he doesn't want kids but doesn't want you to leave either.

You're 38, you need to think about kids now, not wait 2 years and hope he's changed his mind. Not wait 4 years and hope he eventually wants them.

You know the old saying, "Ignore the words, listen to the actions"
Well his past actions all point to him not wanting kids, not wanting long term relationships, not wanting long term ties of any sort. I'd listen to that if I were you or 2 years will pass and you'll be still at the square 1 you're at now.

He sounds pretty clueless to me. I’d be wary of someone who hadn’t been in love at 38.

Also “ He then described her being anxious and him feeling under pressure, and her getting very emotional a lot ” doesn’t match up with “ He said he just had no clue what a big deal it was and that she needed his support, and he would have been there for her more if she had told him how anxious it was making her." Sounds like he knew just how serious she was

My future faker radar is pinging, honestly. He seems awfully agreeable... Yet he doesn't actually ever give a straight answer.

He said about children, "he does want them, but will also be okay if he doesn't have them, and that he doesn't feel the same pressure."

Sorry, but that sounds a lot more like no to me than yes. He doesn't feel the same pressure because he just isn't arsed about it, which in my opinion is a NO.

He says living together sounds "pretty nice", yet ask how do you manage it. What? Is that really so hard to figure out? He says clarity is important but he's not clear about anything. I don't think he even knows what he wants.

Sorry, but I think he is one of those emotionally unavailable "whatever" men who go along with things until the woman can't deal with the lack of progress anymore. They then break up and he's not even upset about it. Just another "whatever" thing and he moves on to the next one.

For a 38 year old man, he seems to be going nowhere fast.

You only have his word for it about why previous relationships failed. Tbh I think anyone saying they didn’t think egg freezing was a big deal is either a liar or an idiot. The fact that he describes his previous girlfriends as needy and anxious makes my hackles rise too.

Look, it’s easy for me to say this, but most of the men I know were clear that they wanted kids from a very early point in relationships. Maybe not right now, because when a number of these relationships started a lot of these guys were in their early twenties, but definitely at some point.

@BoomyBooms

Voted yabu because I get the vague feeling you are adjusting your expectations to suit this man, when I don't think you should. Love shouldn't grow slowly in the way you describe. During the first few months you should be absolutely infatuated with each other. You should be feeling adored right now! Imo what grows from that is the deeper summer spend your life together love. Maybe if you really like him you could give him a bit longer but personally I have a bad feeling about his history and attitude. Think you deserve better.

I completely disagree. There’s no reason at all why love shouldn’t grow slowly. In fact I’d go further, early “love” tends to be lust or infatuation, neither of which have staying power.

You say you feel secure with him and he shows you he loves you, rather than telling you. That means a lot. Personally I’d far rather have this kind of relationship than be love bombed.

@BoomyBooms @VinylDetective I think everyone's idea of love is different. Mine used to be butterflies, now I think it's that thing that grows after the butterflies as they could be just lust. He said that he doesn't think that the infatuation feelings are love - he has felt the infatuation (and I think we're pretty infatuated, if in a more grown up adult way?), but he hasn't had the feelings grow after that into something he would say is love.

Tbh I'd run a mile. I don't think you should waste a couple of years hanging around to see if someone who sounds like they prefer to conduct an avoidant attachment style is going to change their mind. It sounds very familiar to me and in my case, I wish I'd walked away rather than ignored my gut instinct and waited years for him to change his mind, all the time being told I was needy/anxious. I wasn't to start with but the uncertainty and distant behaviour turned me into an anxious person who needed constant reassurance, which I don't even recognise as myself

He’s not bothered about having kids ... if you really really want kids then I’d leave. You could spend 2 years with him and he could say he’s still not sure and then what ... fast approaching 40 and you might have to start all over again.

Find someone that says yes, yes I want children 100%. Not someone that’s not bothered

@weemadarthur yes I see your point about him surely being more aware of the fertility anxiety than he says he was...

OP, you sound like such a considerate partner and I really hope things work out for you. Reading your posts, I’m just amazed at how excruciatingly analytical you are about this man/ relationship. Your mind seems to be a maze of emotions, fears, dreams and worries. I can understand why, you’re potentially pinning a lifetime worth of desires to a future with this man. The thing is, there’s no “right” answer or direction - you just have to make decisions based upon the choices you have in front of you right now. Does this man make you happy enough that you’re happy to wait and see what the future holds? Is he enough or is he a stepping stone to a family life that may never happen? Do you actually want to be with this man or are you settling with a view to having children? What I’m saying is- don’t give up on your dream for just any man. Only for a man you want more than anything else. If you aren’t in love with him, move on.

He doesn't sound like he wants kids very much, to be honest. It sounds more like he'd cope with kids if they came along but might be a little resentful.

Strange that all his exes were anxious and needy. Or maybe it's because they were in a relationship with someone who is a drifter and always felt like they were on the back foot.

I've read your previous thread too. I feel like people like him don't really change. He's almost half way through life, is still non committal about things whether it's a job/marriage/kids. There's a significant chance that he would still be on the fence about kids in 2 years. So unless you genuinely can't see your life without him, I would keep looking.

Also I always see it as a bit of a red flag when a guy labels their ex as 'needy' 'anxious' 'intense' 'crazy' etc etc so I would just be wary if I were you.

I’m a bloke in this age range, and he sounds nice, you sound nice it also sounds like you communicate pretty well. What concerns me is putting aside notions of what constitute romantic love for a moment, as I think that is counter-intuitively unhelpful right now. It’s a question of care, does he care enough about you right now to share your biological pressure to have kids?

From what you have outlined so far I think he does clearly care about you, but does he care enough to honestly share the pressure you feel about having kids? That’s really the nub of this, and he might be as he’s willing to have further communication about it. However if he was one of my male friends who came to me about it I would ask him do you care about your gf? Most I’d expect would say yes, I would then say do care about her enough to answer honestly are you willing to commit to children with her, or let her go if you think there is ANY chance whatsoever you won’t be, because to do anything else to a woman at 38 who has clearly expressed an interest in having children would be very wrong.

At 38 you really don’t have the luxury to spend years finding out. I hate mischaracterising women in this position as needy. It’s hardly as if it’s not well known a lot of women single in their late 30s early 40s won’t be in this position, and if he still needs time to find himself he should either date women a bit younger or a bit older than himself, or establish very early on he’s with someone at 38 who shares his ambivalence. Anyway I really hope it all works out for you OP!

Disregarding the relationship entirely, egg freezing alone has very poor future success rates. You are much more likely to have a live birth if you freeze complete embryos, so I would very seriously consider using donor sperm to do so.

(I started solo donor treatment at 36 and had three miscarriages in the next three years. It isn’t the easy instant fix for everybody, and at 36 you really don’t have two years to waste while he dicks around in fertility terms) Oops, I wasn’t supposed to be commenting on the relationship...

Can't you go ahead and have kids ? Still date him ?