To be wary of a man who's never been in love at 38

[hellotesting123123]

I'm dating someone for the past few months who is kind and considerate. We have great chemistry and it feels like things are progressing nicely - he's introducing me to friends, talking about our relationship as if it will be long term, is consistent with contact etc. I find him super considerate, good at pulling his weight on practical stuff, very very handsome, and just nice to be around.

I actually posted about him before (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3987311-AIBU-to-consider-dumping-someone-because-of-their-job-prospects?pg=8) and it turned into a conversation which was more about his ability to commit, given he is 38 and doesn't seem to have had a relationship for longer than a year. People also pointed out that I should have an explicit conversation about kids with him because it is playing on my mind, and was the real issue behind me worrying about his financial situation and ability to be in a job etc.

Some people also felt he had dicked about a previous woman who was 36 and anxious about fertility (I am also 36 and anxious about fertility!).

So, we had a conversation yesterday where this ex came up and he said that she had asked him to commit to a timeline for having kids of a year, and he had said that if the relationship was in the right place then yes he would consider it. He said that they had talked at cross purposes and she had taken that as more of a commitment than it was - he felt that they needed to see how the relationship progressed first. He then described her being anxious and him feeling under pressure, and her getting very emotional a lot at what she saw as his lack of feeling. From his side, he felt he couldn't 'manufacture feelings'.

They broke up 11 months later - he said the final straw was when she said she was freezing her eggs, and he had said that he was supportive of that, and she took that to mean that he didn't care / didn't want to be involved. He said he just had no clue what a big deal it was and that she needed his support, and he would have been there for her more if she had told him how anxious it was making her.

That then led to me talking about the fact that I'm doing egg freezing and am also anxious about fertility, and that I didn't want to be with someone who doesn't want children. He said he does want them, but will also be okay if he doesn't have them, and that he doesn't feel the same pressure. But that if I have a timeline, that's okay and we should talk about it. I said two years, and he said that sounded like a good amount of time. However, Im now super anxious - what's the point in a timeline in a way - just puts pressure on the situation, and I don't want him to read this as he can just stay with me for two years and then let me go cus he's not 'quite ready'.

We also spoke about living together. He said he had never done this, and asked how you manage it, and I shared my experiences. He said it sounded pretty nice, and I think he is thinking about this for us soon. I am thinking about moving to Bristol and he has indicated he would be open to doing this too for instance.

He also admitted in this conversation that he has never 'loved' anyone. I think he only started having relationships in his 30s, and they've mostly been around a year long. Is this a giant red flag?

The thing is, I actually quite secure with him. He is not direct about it (yet), but I get the sense he sees a future with me. He's very physically affectionate, and even though he definitely has issues expressing verbal affection (I do a little but not to the same extent), I think it's clear he really likes me. He shows this through actions, and not words. I used to need words but the older I get the more I just want someone that will pull their weight and show they care.

But I don't want to be with him for a year and then discover he still hasn't developed love for me, and I can feel myself holding back because of this.

But then I wonder whether this 'love' thing is a bit of a misnomer - everyone has different ideas of what constitutes love, and mine has really changed over the past ten years. Used to think it was the butterflies stuff; now I feel like it's something that grows over time and that you build together. I have a feeling he is the same, and will be a slow grower, which on the one hand I am comfy with but then the needy, anxious part of me worries it will never happen and wants him to adore me NOW.

Sorry, this isn't very coherent. I guess I'm just weighing up whether this worth continuing.

38 and hasn't loved anyone. Has already potentially messed around someone who was 36 and anxious for kids. Should I just get out now?

Yeah maybe that's an idea @TwoBoysTooMany76. Only thing is the ethics. We haven't had a convo about exclusivity, although he's implied it and I think it's one of those situations where it's assumed....we've only been seeing each other for two months physically though (after two months of lockdown) - maybe wiser for me to protect myself by trying other guys, even though tbh I have no wish to because I really like this one!

Why are decisions about commitment/marriage/kids still so often about what the man wants? Why are women still wasting years of their lives (and fertility) waiting for a bloke who essentially says "If you're a good girl, then maybe we can talk about that future you want one day"?

OP, I hope you have the self-worth to say "I'm not getting what I want and need from this relationship, so I'm going to call it a day and look elsewhere". I wish ALL women had enough self-worth to prioritise their own needs in a relationship.

@MeanWeedratStew

Why are decisions about commitment/marriage/kids still so often about what the man wants? Why are women still wasting years of their lives (and fertility) waiting for a bloke who essentially says "If you're a good girl, then maybe we can talk about that future you want one day"?

OP, I hope you have the self-worth to say "I'm not getting what I want and need from this relationship, so I'm going to call it a day and look elsewhere". I wish ALL women had enough self-worth to prioritise their own needs in a relationship.

This!!

@hellotesting123123

Yeah maybe that's an idea *@TwoBoysTooMany76*. Only thing is the ethics. We haven't had a convo about exclusivity, although he's implied it and I think it's one of those situations where it's assumed....we've only been seeing each other for two months physically though (after two months of lockdown) - maybe wiser for me to protect myself by trying other guys, even though tbh I have no wish to because I really like this one!

I think he is actually very adapt at letting women think they could be getting in to a serious relationship. He implies and lets you assume when he’s never actually said any thing concrete which makes it easier for him to escape - as he never promised anything. This has probably been his way of life.

You are worth way more than this. He hasn’t worked for four year... come on that alone should tell you where he is at with his life.

I got dicked about in my 30s
I'm now 41 and I've given up on the idea of a family.
If children are that important to you, find someone else.

It doesn’t sound to me like he strung his previous partner along. The fact is that in a brand new relationship how can you and why should you commit to how you will feel in a years time about something as massive as having children with someone. Of course it’s totally clear why at 36 you (and this other woman) don’t want to waste time on casual relationships, however you have to allow for the fact that you both need time to get to know each other and both need to opt in to further serious commitment voluntarily, not under duress according to someone else’s time frame.

People change their minds early on in relationships, and that’s ok too. I certainly wouldn’t like to meet someone and have to commit immediately to having kids with them. Ok maybe in theory he’d be up for that but so early on he is also allowed to consider what feels right for him as the relationship progresses, too!

The fact is that the beginning of a relationship often comes with lots of uncertainty and you just have to accept that to some extent and see how things develop. It sounds like your anxiety around fertility is causing your brain to go into overdrive which may be understandable but is an inappropriate amount of pressure on this man and this new relationship.

It is unusual that someone hasn’t been n love at 38 (imo) however stranger things happen and if all else is well it’s not a reason in itself to dump someone.

He sounds like he’s actually been very accommodating and open to discussing these things.

Was he the one who went travelling for a few years or was that a different thread?

Be careful OP that you don’t fall in to the trap of thinking your going to be that special one that changes him. This guy is definitely a drifter. The fact he hasn’t worked in such a long time shows he hasn’t got any plans for the future. It’s all just day by day stuff.

It’s completely normal at this age to be able to be honest and frank about what you expect from this relationship. You shouldn’t be embarrassed to actually say -

‘Actually I’m only looking for someone is wanting to commit. I’m not in to ‘seeing how it goes, if your not on the same page as me I don’t want to waste my time’

Your not a spring chicken. You know this. He knows this. How would he financially contribute to the family? Could you even trust him to do his fair share with money? Are you going to end up with an aging flakey drifter?

Ask him out right and if he doesn’t give you a concrete answer let him go. He really isn’t worth it.

Also my friend used donor sperm and now has a little boy. You don’t need this bloke to have a family

I think there are actually mad levels of entitlement on this thread from some posters.

You’ve been seeing each other two months and if he hasn’t committed to having children yet then the relationship is clearly all about him and you’re not getting your needs met?

Just. Mad.

To give you an example of how this could turn out. My DP and I met through Tinder the evening my ex broke up with me. I never used Tinder and wanted a distraction. Anyway, I met my current DP.

He also never really had long term relationships and didn't want kids either. I was 39 and he 37. Three months later and failed contraception, I fell pregnant. We've been together for 1 year 6 months. We have a nice home together and our 7 month girl. He's the most unbelievable father you can imagine. He became a stay at home dad so i can build up my career, I earn far more than he does. Also due to corona, we can't put her in nursery. So he gave up working to look after her. Now our restrictions have lifted he's applying for jobs again.
I think because he hasn't been in love you see it as a red flag. But maybe things just didn't work out like for my DP. If I hadn't given him a chance, I wouldn't have such an amazing parter, daughter and life.

@WonderHike

I think there are actually mad levels of entitlement on this thread from some posters.

You’ve been seeing each other two months and if he hasn’t committed to having children yet then the relationship is clearly all about him and you’re not getting your needs met?

Just. Mad.

Eh? Well there is quite a bit more than that but it all builds a picture. Maybe you should actually read the thread and OP past thread about it.

I met DH when I was 31 there was no ambiguity or game playing. We knew straight away. OP has had doubts since day one. She needs to listen to them

Worth saying that in general I'm a very doubtful / analytical person, and I don't trust my own radar. So the second I see something that I think might be a red flag - even only in someone else's eyes - I feel anxious and want to work it out. I don't think the doubts themselves necessarily mean as much as they would with someone else, because that's just the way I am. An overthinker!

I was with a guy like him for a bit and he then said that he’d been clear (through implication!) from the beginning that he wasn’t committed, even though he actually acted as though he was interested in a long term thing.

Once I’d got over him (took ages - he was perfect on paper and I was head over heels), I knew what I really wanted and told my next BF (now DH) that I was 34, needed to know that he was committed to me/children sooner as a result and was fine with him moving on to someone if he wasn’t as committed (but did add that he probably shouldn’t be dating women my age if that was the case). I said I was giving him a timeline and expected a proposal within a time period. I got one.

I realise that it was a high risk strategy but I was adamant I wasn’t going to be led up the garden path again: and if he hadn’t proposed then I would have had my answer and moved on.

We met and got married within two years; he proposed six months before then (and my deadline to myself had been a few months after that).

Having found all previous relationships hard work, I found this one quite straightforward because I felt and was in control. Make sure you’re making the decisions actively and not going along with what he wants because you’re afraid it will end otherwise. If it does end due to your decision, that tells you what you need to know.

I really feel your anxiety by reading your posts OP. You like him and want him to commit. If you were thirty, you would amble along with him enjoying your time together until you came to the realisation yourself that as nice a guy as he is, he isn’t lifelong husband material.

From what you have written, you are set goals in life and work towards them. This man doesn’t but is happy to ride the wave with you. This doesn’t mean he is a terrible person. I If you look around, you will see many couples where there is an imbalance. Two people both trying to lead can result in conflict. One person doing all the leading leads to resentment.
I think this man is happy for you to take charge but he does not want responsibility. He is going to tell you what you want to hear because he likes you. Two years for him is years and years away. Look at his past relationships and you have all the information you need to know.

Forget talk about love. It is irrelevant. I have never been in love. I have been infatuated and I have cared deeply for people. I have had people say they love me, people who treated me badly. I have told them the same thing back because I felt I should. It is just a word that muddles our rational thoughts. Look at people’s actions.

You sound great OP. You know what you want. That you have been chatting to another man during lockdown tells you this isn’t the right guy.

AnaadiNitya

I don’t think this is about being committed to having children but the question does he want children.
Given the ops age it is a perfectly valid question and if she can’t get a straight answer and he needs to think about it then she doesn’t have time to mess around for a couple of years only for him to say no or still not being sure.

The new guy when asked the question knew immediately what he wanted. He didn’t have to think about it.

If women didn’t have such a short window of fertility then maybe op could wait a few years and see where the relationship went and then decide to start again with someone else. But we don’t have unlimited fertility so these questions need to be asked.

Agree that he is not right for you OP. At the very least he is either lying or being incredibly self-centred to claim to not recognise that a woman will have fertility worries. Neither quality is attractive.

I think just date more men and experiment with asking them all your questions and see how they respond. Surely any decent person can say yes I want children (or no), without equating that with immediately putting a ring on anyone's finger. That that means having them with the right person ought to be a given.

Remember you don't just want a man who will consent to create a baby with you, but you need on one who wants to be a good involved dad and take an active part in the kid's life. Or you would be better off with an anonymous sperm donor and being a single mum.

So many red flags with this guy. He doesn't have to be deliberately malicious to be devastating your MH. Move on ASAP

Glad it is working out for you TImmytoo, but its a huge gamble to take with a child's well being. Heartbreaking for all if the father still doesn't want them.

My sister thinks in a similar way OP, but all she manages to do is undermine her own good judgement and persuade herself to ignore every bit of sensible advice she hears or sees. Its so sad :( and yes now she is older with fertility worries and still on an off with a guy who won't commit and worse than ever mental health - he is seemingly nice enough if you don't look too closely but an obvious narcissist once you do. Please don't do this to yourself. She is in such pain

The reason posters like myself focus on his near 4 year holiday is that it tells you a LOT about his head space.

He's living his life, for himself about himself.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that in my opinion.

However, I just wouldn't want to be the one ending up with him.
Why?
Because early 30's he kind of opted out.
His choice.

But his choice to opt out of paid work tells you so much where his head is.
It's in a place where he is doing exactly what he feels like.

He is not in a place where he's focused on building a real future with someone, buying a house in the country he lives in, contributing to a pension, making preparation for financial security so that he can help provide for a family.

Finances are a crucial part of building a future.
When men do it, you know at least that they are hoping for a future where they provide for someone other than themselves.

I repeat, absolutely NO problem when a man or woman doesn't want these things.

He is vaguely intimating that ye are on the same page but his actions and the last 4 years tell you otherwise.

Surely he would returned to the workforce if he was even vaguely interested in a family based on his conversations with his ex.....even if she wasn't the one.

At the very very least, do not be exclusive with this guy.

@hellotesting123123

Yeah maybe that's an idea *@TwoBoysTooMany76*. Only thing is the ethics. We haven't had a convo about exclusivity, although he's implied it and I think it's one of those situations where it's assumed....we've only been seeing each other for two months physically though (after two months of lockdown) - maybe wiser for me to protect myself by trying other guys, even though tbh I have no wish to because I really like this one!

@hellotesting123123 You don't really have the luxury of the time of meeting someone, date them for six months to find out they don't share your life goals/views if you want kids!

The problem is you are only seeing him and you are so invested already after two months. I get that, emotions grow, you can't help it. But you are literally only seeing ONE view aka him.

I met someone last year, I was smitten with him from day one, he felt like he would fit into my life and I into his. I liked so much about him. Only problem was his ex had died the year previously and on hindsight, he clearly wasn't over it. He spent most of last year dicking me about, talking about his ex, the life they had planned etc, he reused to see a counsellor (I was clearly the subsitute counsellor). And I was too smitten to care. Looking back, that whole 'relationship' made me so sad. I actually ended up in therapy for a few months to get my head around him!

Luckily, as my username implied, I already have two kids and future DCs not on my plan. While you are still dating, so, so many things can come up that could be a dealbreaker. I think six months is when the facade comes off? I am currently dating a few men, there is one who is a firm favourite but it's still early days. I am so aware anything can still happen and I am watching all their words/actions carefully. The other people I am seeing prevents me from overly-investing in one and they provide a window into another life/perspective...

I think it's mad to be talking exclusivity (and you said 'implied'? By who?) when there seem to be so many issues already two months into dating... Spread your wings, lady!

@tooboystoomany76 - haha, love your post! I thought it was just normal for people to become exclusive after 2 or 3 months, and as we've been talking for 4 it feels like ages - but you're right - maybe it's not that abnormal for me to be dating around. I think it will help me get a sense of perspective. Which is better for him in the long run anyway - speeds up whatever conclusion this is all going to be!

Out of interest - have you introduced any of the guys you're dating to friends? This guy has had me out for drinks with a couple of his sets of friends and I had invited him round for dinner tomorrow with one of my groups. It then gets super awkward if I start talking with friends about other blokes, no?

I'd just feel weird not introducing him when he's introducing me, if that makes sense?

Also @tooboystoomany76 - what are your thoughts on sleeping with two people at once (protected?). I don't think I could ever do this. But the rub is current guy is the best I've had in bed by a long shot, ever - it's amazing. And that really matters to me. Wouldn't want to jump ship for someone else I hadn't 'tested out', as it were.

Personally I really don’t the 4year holiday means anything.

A friend we knew many years ago was burned out. Just out of a divorce he jacked in his City job and went off the rails for a few years. He made some questionable choices with gfs and drinking. Travelled a bit then he met someone and within a few months he had got his act together. Started a business, got engaged and then married and then a child.
Sometimes people do take a break and take extended holidays but for most people they get it out of their system and rejoin society eventually

Whether this guy is ready I am not sure.

Freeze your eggs
Have fun with him, relax
Enjoy time with him without kids

Maybe I have missed it but, are you in love with him? All your posts are about whether he is committed to marriage and kids, whether he loves you...do you actually love him?
It's been a couple of months! Honestly, if I was dating and some one started demanding assurances that I would eventually have a family with them after literally a few weeks I would run a fucking mile.
Yes, sometimes you just " know" really early on, and yes, being 36 and wanting children is very anxiety causing,but ultimately that's not his fault or his problem.
I totally agree with the pp advice to just date, date everyone, do not focus so hard on someone that you are not sure about.
He doesn't owe you any promises and you don't owe him exclusivity.
And if no one matches up in a year or two, get a sperm donor, because frankly that's how you are viewing this man really.

@HepzibahGreen I'm not sure I 'love' him, but i'm certainly in the infatuation stage right now. I really really like him and feel relaxed and happy in his company.

I think you're right though - date around and then see how this thing goes. As I hope i made clear in subsequent posts, I actually haven't asked him for a timeline! He bought it up, and suggested two years hypothetically. To which I said that sounded good. He also wants to talk about it again and said we shouldn't be afraid of doing so etc. as I said I find these things difficult to talk about. I find them hard because I agree you can't just plan these things at this stage!!

This guy has had me out for drinks with a couple of his sets of friends

I dated a guy who did this. He even asked me to go into the office he worked in so I could meet his business partners. I really thought we were in it for the long haul and was devastated when it ended. I thought introductions meant security. Turned out he introduced all his girlfriends/dates to his friends. He was a sociable man who either didn’t think about his actions at all or was really naive. I’m still not sure, maybe just an ego boost for him.

God that's weird @Alongcameacat. What a dick! Never had that happen before. You just never know.

I think the fact I haven't asked him about exclusivity is probs also indicative I'm not quite ready yet. So maybe it's not such a bad thing - allays the guilt for me.