To be wary of a man who's never been in love at 38

[hellotesting123123]

I'm dating someone for the past few months who is kind and considerate. We have great chemistry and it feels like things are progressing nicely - he's introducing me to friends, talking about our relationship as if it will be long term, is consistent with contact etc. I find him super considerate, good at pulling his weight on practical stuff, very very handsome, and just nice to be around.

I actually posted about him before (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3987311-AIBU-to-consider-dumping-someone-because-of-their-job-prospects?pg=8) and it turned into a conversation which was more about his ability to commit, given he is 38 and doesn't seem to have had a relationship for longer than a year. People also pointed out that I should have an explicit conversation about kids with him because it is playing on my mind, and was the real issue behind me worrying about his financial situation and ability to be in a job etc.

Some people also felt he had dicked about a previous woman who was 36 and anxious about fertility (I am also 36 and anxious about fertility!).

So, we had a conversation yesterday where this ex came up and he said that she had asked him to commit to a timeline for having kids of a year, and he had said that if the relationship was in the right place then yes he would consider it. He said that they had talked at cross purposes and she had taken that as more of a commitment than it was - he felt that they needed to see how the relationship progressed first. He then described her being anxious and him feeling under pressure, and her getting very emotional a lot at what she saw as his lack of feeling. From his side, he felt he couldn't 'manufacture feelings'.

They broke up 11 months later - he said the final straw was when she said she was freezing her eggs, and he had said that he was supportive of that, and she took that to mean that he didn't care / didn't want to be involved. He said he just had no clue what a big deal it was and that she needed his support, and he would have been there for her more if she had told him how anxious it was making her.

That then led to me talking about the fact that I'm doing egg freezing and am also anxious about fertility, and that I didn't want to be with someone who doesn't want children. He said he does want them, but will also be okay if he doesn't have them, and that he doesn't feel the same pressure. But that if I have a timeline, that's okay and we should talk about it. I said two years, and he said that sounded like a good amount of time. However, Im now super anxious - what's the point in a timeline in a way - just puts pressure on the situation, and I don't want him to read this as he can just stay with me for two years and then let me go cus he's not 'quite ready'.

We also spoke about living together. He said he had never done this, and asked how you manage it, and I shared my experiences. He said it sounded pretty nice, and I think he is thinking about this for us soon. I am thinking about moving to Bristol and he has indicated he would be open to doing this too for instance.

He also admitted in this conversation that he has never 'loved' anyone. I think he only started having relationships in his 30s, and they've mostly been around a year long. Is this a giant red flag?

The thing is, I actually quite secure with him. He is not direct about it (yet), but I get the sense he sees a future with me. He's very physically affectionate, and even though he definitely has issues expressing verbal affection (I do a little but not to the same extent), I think it's clear he really likes me. He shows this through actions, and not words. I used to need words but the older I get the more I just want someone that will pull their weight and show they care.

But I don't want to be with him for a year and then discover he still hasn't developed love for me, and I can feel myself holding back because of this.

But then I wonder whether this 'love' thing is a bit of a misnomer - everyone has different ideas of what constitutes love, and mine has really changed over the past ten years. Used to think it was the butterflies stuff; now I feel like it's something that grows over time and that you build together. I have a feeling he is the same, and will be a slow grower, which on the one hand I am comfy with but then the needy, anxious part of me worries it will never happen and wants him to adore me NOW.

Sorry, this isn't very coherent. I guess I'm just weighing up whether this worth continuing.

38 and hasn't loved anyone. Has already potentially messed around someone who was 36 and anxious for kids. Should I just get out now?

@Alongcameacat - had the same thing with the guy I mentioned before - holiday away with his friends!

@hellotesting123123

Also *@tooboystoomany76* - what are your thoughts on sleeping with two people at once (protected?). I don't think I could ever do this. But the rub is current guy is the best I've had in bed by a long shot, ever - it's amazing. And that really matters to me. Wouldn't want to jump ship for someone else I hadn't 'tested out', as it were.

@hellotesting123123 Thank you! I am wise only because I have been burned too many times by feckless men.

I personally think as long as you are practising safe sex, you can have sex with whoever you want. And if it matters to that person you are sleeping with that you are the only one they are sleeping with, they should ask/clarify. However, what I am asking you to do does not necessarily mean sleeping around! You can date someone without sleeping with them. I think it will be interesting for you to start talking to other men and be upfront about the fact you want children and see what happens. You might find their reactions interesting and give you a better perspective on your current situation...

As for the current guy being the best shag you have had, there's plenty more where that came from! I had a FWB arrangement for a while. We had been shagging for 2.5 years and he's fucking amazing in bed or rather, we were fucking amazing in bed. I had then since slept with others since that arrangement ended and been a bit blah. But then I met someone I had insane chemistry with and the sex has been mind-blowing, not in the same way of course but amazing nonetheless so I don't think you should think you are getting your best sex at 36...

@twoboystoomany76 - refreshing attitude!

Haha, yes, I'm certainly 'dicknotized' at the moment (love that word) - which makes me hunker down and go exclusive quite early. I don't plan on sleeping around at all - more coffee dates, but if there was someone with potential I might well consider it. Reckon it would spell the end of current guy for me tho, as I'm not naturally someone that likes to sleep with two people at the same time. Don't judge those that do though. Modern dating, eh?

Actually I’m only looking for someone is wanting to commit. I’m not in to ‘seeing how it goes, if your not on the same page as me I don’t want to waste my time’
If a girl said that to me after two months you wouldn't see me (and most men) for dust.

@saucy99 I don't understand your message - if a girl said what to you?

Also, at 36 I'm a woman FYI.

[quote hellotesting123123]@twoboystoomany76 - refreshing attitude!

Haha, yes, I'm certainly 'dicknotized' at the moment (love that word) - which makes me hunker down and go exclusive quite early. I don't plan on sleeping around at all - more coffee dates, but if there was someone with potential I might well consider it. Reckon it would spell the end of current guy for me tho, as I'm not naturally someone that likes to sleep with two people at the same time. Don't judge those that do though. Modern dating, eh?[/quote]
@hellotesting123123 I have a friend who is your age and she has fertility issues on her side and had failed IVFs with her ex so she doesn't think kids are in her future and just wants to meet someone.

She has spent the last 2-3 months dating ONE guy, they have not slept together (came close once) and now she thinks things are fizzling out and I told her from day 1, she needed to keep her options open. She's like you, not into multi-dating or multi-sleeping (is that a word? ) and I kept saying it's just dating, you don't have to sleep with anyone/everyone! So she is back on the apps. She couldn't even get this one guy to sleep with her and has literally has wasted the last 2-3 months dating this one guy who has turned out to be a bit of a control freak, emotional cold fish and germophobe. What a catch! So don't assume every guy wants to jump in bed either, some don't as my friend has found out!

He sounds very much like one of my closest male friends (who is eerily the same age). He’s a lovely guy, but I despair at the situations he gets himself in with women sometimes. I don’t think he deliberately sets out to lead anyone on, but he’s got such unrealistic ideas around what the “future mother of his children” would be like, that reality can never marry up with it and most relationships seem to fizzle out within a year.

The sad thing is deep down he does appear to really want to get married and have a family, but his passiveness in relationships combined with such an unrealistic bar means I fear it’ll probably pass him by.

Oh well, yeah, I know a few men like that too Pointy. They have an idealised image in their head that doesn't really exist.
Mind you, I think a lot of women probably do too UNTIL they hit 35 with no kids then it's like "you'll do"!
I get it, I do, and it's really unfair on women, but being a little bit older than you OP, I know too many couples that settled down because the woman wanted kids asap and once the baby stage is over the wheels start to come off the relationship because the love between the two people was never really there.
I also know quite a few people who had their kids young with people they were madly in love with, split up and are happily married again in their late 40s once the kids are grown (I think am going down that road and it has it's own obstacles so nothing is ever perfect!)
I guess what I am saying is that sometimes in life you can want the classic love=marriage=kids dream, but experience tells me that the whole, lasting, package is actually quite rare.

@PointyMcguire that's interesting, I also have a male friend like this. We've known each other for years, and once had a messy fling but he was a bit of a nightmare and I put a stop to it quickly. He told me at the end that he loved me and had been acting out of insecurity and defensiveness as I was giving mixed signals (to be fair, I was, I wasn't ready for a relationship at the time) but I said I'd had enough.

Since then, we've become good friends, but I've seen him dick around so many women. They've all been total catches, but never enough - and he will essentially know this from the beginning, yet keep them going? Thus creating toxic situations with lots of arguing / insecure women etc

Funnily enough, he often implies that it's me he's really wanted all along - he said a few months ago that if we got together he'd propose within six months. But the very fact he said that whilst still with a girlfriend of over 2 years sent shivers down my spine. I've since distanced myself from him. He last called me when they'd had yet another breakup (they seem to break up every other week).

I don't think he means to be terrible, but he does feel guilty and I think stays because of the 'sunk cost fallacy'. This last woman he's been going out with for about three years. I've explicitly told him that the worst thing he can do to a woman is take away her fertile years while he sits on the fence, and he has indicated he feels bad but still stays. I don't think he was ever very into her as he said he wasn't sure right from the beginning.

He says he does love her, but more as a friend. I have no doubt that if I gave in one day he'd do the same to me - he only likes me because he can't have me, I'm sure.

Anyway, irrelevant now as I'm finally sick and tired of seeing him treat women this way and feeling guilty for somehow being the 'one that got away' (even though we only ever see each other every couple of months). So I've stepped back from the friendship. Shame as aside from his occasional inappropriate comments we are great friends.

Thanks @HepzibahGreen, that's really great perspective.

I think actually what's most difficult about this whole thing is that I feel like I 'failed'. Like I should have planned this better, or like I'm dysfunctional or something.

I actually had nice, stable boyfriends in my 20s (including one that wanted to get married when we were 25 but I felt too young - in London that felt like lightyears away), then when I turned thirty was with someone for 3.5 years that totally led me on. I was really in love but he wasn't ready for things and didn't ever tell me.

Hence the panic now. I'm so worried someone will do it again I find it hard to relax into things or see them clearly.

I don’t want to cause further anxiety OP, but I’d be a bit cautious about the multiple dating thing. I’m not at all against it, if everyone is up front about it and is free to make informed decisions.

However if I was guy number 2 who was interested in in you and with having kids with. The fact you are “dicknotized” by another guy would be a massive red flag for me. Some of us guys look for the butterflies too, especially from the prospective mother of our future children.

It would be worse if I wasn’t told that ahead of
time, and eventually discovered that in the first throes of our early relationship I wasn’t really the one you wanted I was just willing to offer children. I would feel left feeling more of a utility than a prospective romantic partner.

I’m not making the claim that monogamy should be one universal standard, and would make zero judgements there although I believe honesty should be!. However it is one of my personal subjective values (and one I personally adhere to myself!). I do not think I am unrepresentative of a lot of men in that regard, although too many of us are hypocrites when it comes to fidelity.

I would have absolutely no issue with you going out for coffee’s with multiple blokes, and my pattern is when I cop actual feelings for a woman, I am very upfront and communicate them as soon as I am aware of them, but I have way too many bad experiences that if I found out you weren’t in the same place and there were multiple blokes in the picture I would respectfully withdraw and wish you and your partner all the best.

Hi @dervel, yes I am probably a lot more like you - I tend to just lose interest if I like someone.

I think a reasonable middle ground might be going for coffees with others and seeing how that makes me feel (less enthusiastic about current guy, more?) but only keeping at that perhaps.

I would certainly never just jump ship because I found anyone who wanted kids. I could have settled with a couple of guys I've dated if that was the case. I want chemistry and feelings on top of the same shared goals. I guess the conundrum is I do have / am developing feelings for current guy, but everyone thinks he's got too many red flags to focus on.

I know I could have an adult conversation about exclusivity... just feels like maybe a bad idea given my doubts at this point, even if I do really like him. But then I do hate being dishonest, and I think if I were dating others I'd probs have to lie - ie, when he asked me what I'd been up to that day over text etc.

@hellotesting123123 well I think the measure of dishonesty is wether you can universalise it. If you could live with the father of your future children having lied to you, then in which case fair enough. If however it would be a deal breaker for him to have lied to you then that’s a double standard and therefore unacceptable.

There is also the difference between a lie of omission and a lie of commission. With the latter being much worse. Personally I wouldn’t sleep with any woman without establishing monogamy first, so for me to be put in that position it would have to be a lie of commission as it’s not fair to have a value of fidelity without establishing it first. In other words if I ever did sleep with a woman without establishing it, it becomes more my responsibility than theirs iyswim?

However you might then therefore be a little stuck as I suspect you’d much prefer to be with a man who communicated his preferences with clarity and listened eagerly and attentively to understand yours.

Reading between the lines OP, and it sounds you are mostly aware of this, it sounds like you are quite the catch! You sound like someone who both has and lives your values. That means you are in a much stronger position than you think to assert your needs within a relationship, and I think the sort of quality man you are after will see that and actually be MORE attracted to you for it. I hope that helps!

Hi @dervel, I think I understand!

So you mean because you would establish fidelity before sleeping with someone, you would therefore take responsibility for if they decided to sleep with other people if you hadn't already established this?

Yes, I do prefer clarity I think. I've assumed he's also not sleeping with others, because of things he's said, but everyone is saying I shouldn't assume this without explicit confirmation.

In my experience it's usually taken me and the other person three months of dating before talking about this, and then we've both admitted we didn't sleep with anyone else from very early on but didn't want to put pressure on the other person so waited to talk about it, if you see what I mean.

Thank you - that's such a nice thing to say! I do try and live my values, although I will say that as I'm getting a bit jaded I do find myself probably acting in more avoidant / less honest ways (even this considering sleeping with others) as I've suddenly started to wonder whether I'm just really naive and doing this all wrong and wasting my time on one guy when they're not serious etc. For some reason, I've always had quite a lot of luck with guys deciding they like me, making it clear, being exclusive etc, but lately it doesn't feel so much that way - I think those guys might get snapped up by my age! Or maybe they all just get jaded too....

I think he's very sensible in that he wants to make sure the relationship will work out with someone before bringing kids into it.
Unfortunately that takes time I would be worried about meeting a guy who after a few months wanted to have children with me that quickly
Just make sure you are on the same page and if you are not then move on

This is weird... I think I might know this person's ex, or at least somebody (a mid-30s woman) with almost identical circumstances to the ones described. They had a long term relationship, but broke up because he felt pressured into having a child (or at least a feeling of being sincere about wanting to do this sometime, not with a clock ticking, but he wasn't).

As an aside, the couple had been through many months of their friends' weddings and babies arriving, and both of them were a combination of awkward and fed up of the spotlight on them in comparison to that, although according to my friend, it was him who returned to such conversations a lot, more than her.

He had a good job but 2 serious hobbies, one which a lot of people would have seen as quite geeky, and another that was very sociable and active with a lot of scope for ad hoc nights on the town around it. Although I can't be sure, it seemed to me that he really didn't want either of these threatened or diluted by commitment to being available even for a while for a partner/baby in the vulnerable stages. Although it was fine, and honest, this in particular made me think he was choosing the 'about him' camp and that hobbies would always be his priority whatever happened with relationships. If this sounds familiar then please think carefully as he probably won't change and will resent developments that do require behaviour change that is not of his making.

Funnily enough, he often implies that it's me he's really wanted all along

and feeling guilty for somehow being the 'one that got away' (even though we only ever see each other every couple of months).

Don’t feel guilty. I’ve been with a man exactly like this. I can guarantee you he wouldn’t choose to be with you if you were into him and wouldn’t call you his lost love. Some men use the ‘if only....the timing was right/I had realised how I felt at the time/I wasn’t travelling so much with work at the time and so on’ as an excuse not to commit to anyone. They romanticise their past dating experiences into being love affairs that never were.

Ring him and tell him you want to give it a real go and he will run a mile!

@hellotesting123123 the reason you
have probably had so much luck is that you are articulate, attentive and probably have a smidge of a tendency to put their needs before your own, you are also potentially very good in bed, as you can’t have great sex if only one person is good at it! What man isn’t going to respond positively to all that?

I think it’s time for you to reflect seriously on your positive characteristics, ok you have a biological ticking clock, but you have a tremendous amount to bring to the table. I think you may have slipped slightly into a lack mentality. Entirely understandable. I’m not trying to say nice things to you to blow smoke up your ass, I’m really trying to get you to consider your virtues more openly at least to yourself.

A good man is going to be very keen to establish what your dreams are, and seek to support you
in achieving them, not just about having children. You should never be shy of communicating them!

From my side of the aisle it can be quite a challenge to get out of a girlfriend what her dreams and aspirations truly are! Way too many women are socialised out of communicating them for fear of being seen as needy. This all tends to build up overtime until there is a quite understandable explosion of frustration and bitterness. I do not think this is especially fair.

It’s a real issue with the romantic ideal being, pumped into us from movies, TV. As if all it takes is for eyes to meet, hearts to flutter and both partners somehow know how to attend to one another’s needs. Trouble is attraction can make us care deeply for people who do not share our values, we need to start being as intimate with our words, thoughts and fears as we are with our bodies to make things really work. I find I am hitting jaded moments myself but it’s usually because I have rushed to physical intimacy with someone before establishing wether we really share the same values, exacerbated with the fact people will lie to you to get what they want.

I think the solution is to maintain a strong frame in your own head at least as to your own value, then the mistakes we all have the capacity to make and their consequences can be mitigated and moved past much quicker. I really do hope things work out for you! I am still hoping for a happy ending with your current bloke! Maybe he’ll have a think and realise your value, but consider this if you aren’t aware of your value first it can make it harder for others to.

@Dervel that's really kind of you to say and I think you are completely right - I am definitely coming from a place of lack. And I DEFINITELY have put partners' needs before my own before - most dramatically in my most recent serious one, which I think I am still not completely over. I feel resentful towards him - so resentful - and angry he wasted my time.

The past few years have hit me quite hard, and I've lost a bit of my identity - including putting dating in front of the things that make me 'me', a little too much perhaps. Thus making me feel more dependent on men to fill the gap.

I totally agree that attraction can scupper things, and being intimate too soon multiplies this. I do sleep with people quite early if I like them and can see it going somewhere, but maybe I should hold off for longer and as you say, explore more about who they are and what their intentions / dreams are. i don't know why I find those conversations excruciatingly painful, yet find it easier to get my kit off etc!

I actually do think current guy realises my value to an extent, but whether he can communicate that or give me what I want or need in terms of clarity on what he wants is another question... I don't think he knows himself, to be honest.

I'm going to try and think of ways to get my sense of inner value back. This focus on fertility / finding the right bloke thing feels like it's really affecting my self esteem, which is then meaning I'm not 'showing up' 100% authentically and unapologetically in relationships.

Very helpful, thank you!!!

@Dervel I also wish you the best of luck - you sound like you really have your head screwed on, and are very emotionally intelligent and mature - so nice to be reminded there are some men out there like this!

Has he now secured a job OP?

Sorry if I missed this in the thread.

@KatherineJaneway, no he hasn't - although to be fair he was very busy finishing off a website he was building for a charity, and he seems to have secured another one which is quite good?

He also put in a really good proposal to the allotment he looks after as to how they use a piece of land and has volunteered to manage it and the volunteers etc, which isn't paid work but at least shows he has some get up and go.... and it did include him building a website, not sure if he's ask for money for that or not.

He was going to get involved in something else voluntary but decided it would be too much work, I think because he wants to do more job apps... he's only done one as far as I know in the past couple of months, but he has made good progress on learning lots of new skills. The website's actually good - better than I've had from web development agencies with far more experience!

@hellotesting123123 the things that make you you, are precisely the things that make someone fall in love with the totality of who you are! That includes your shadow side as well as your ideal self. Don’t take your eye off of motherhood if that is what you really want, but you don’t have time for any man who is likely to hurt you further! It also sounds like you have some healing to do as well. It might be a short spell of being single might benefit you! However I don’t know let your intuition be your guide there.

What I recommend establish some strong friendships with men, I have some amazing women I count as very close friends and it gives me very useful feedback to see relationships from a woman’s point of view. Plus it’s really good practice for building strong emotional/mental connections with women for when I am attracted to someone romantically/sexually. And thank you very much for your kind words too! 🙏

@hellotesting123123

I guess I would find it hard to be with someone without a job (unless they were independently wealthy.) I couldn't have a child with someone without a job either.