To be wary of a man who's never been in love at 38

[hellotesting123123]

I'm dating someone for the past few months who is kind and considerate. We have great chemistry and it feels like things are progressing nicely - he's introducing me to friends, talking about our relationship as if it will be long term, is consistent with contact etc. I find him super considerate, good at pulling his weight on practical stuff, very very handsome, and just nice to be around.

I actually posted about him before (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3987311-AIBU-to-consider-dumping-someone-because-of-their-job-prospects?pg=8) and it turned into a conversation which was more about his ability to commit, given he is 38 and doesn't seem to have had a relationship for longer than a year. People also pointed out that I should have an explicit conversation about kids with him because it is playing on my mind, and was the real issue behind me worrying about his financial situation and ability to be in a job etc.

Some people also felt he had dicked about a previous woman who was 36 and anxious about fertility (I am also 36 and anxious about fertility!).

So, we had a conversation yesterday where this ex came up and he said that she had asked him to commit to a timeline for having kids of a year, and he had said that if the relationship was in the right place then yes he would consider it. He said that they had talked at cross purposes and she had taken that as more of a commitment than it was - he felt that they needed to see how the relationship progressed first. He then described her being anxious and him feeling under pressure, and her getting very emotional a lot at what she saw as his lack of feeling. From his side, he felt he couldn't 'manufacture feelings'.

They broke up 11 months later - he said the final straw was when she said she was freezing her eggs, and he had said that he was supportive of that, and she took that to mean that he didn't care / didn't want to be involved. He said he just had no clue what a big deal it was and that she needed his support, and he would have been there for her more if she had told him how anxious it was making her.

That then led to me talking about the fact that I'm doing egg freezing and am also anxious about fertility, and that I didn't want to be with someone who doesn't want children. He said he does want them, but will also be okay if he doesn't have them, and that he doesn't feel the same pressure. But that if I have a timeline, that's okay and we should talk about it. I said two years, and he said that sounded like a good amount of time. However, Im now super anxious - what's the point in a timeline in a way - just puts pressure on the situation, and I don't want him to read this as he can just stay with me for two years and then let me go cus he's not 'quite ready'.

We also spoke about living together. He said he had never done this, and asked how you manage it, and I shared my experiences. He said it sounded pretty nice, and I think he is thinking about this for us soon. I am thinking about moving to Bristol and he has indicated he would be open to doing this too for instance.

He also admitted in this conversation that he has never 'loved' anyone. I think he only started having relationships in his 30s, and they've mostly been around a year long. Is this a giant red flag?

The thing is, I actually quite secure with him. He is not direct about it (yet), but I get the sense he sees a future with me. He's very physically affectionate, and even though he definitely has issues expressing verbal affection (I do a little but not to the same extent), I think it's clear he really likes me. He shows this through actions, and not words. I used to need words but the older I get the more I just want someone that will pull their weight and show they care.

But I don't want to be with him for a year and then discover he still hasn't developed love for me, and I can feel myself holding back because of this.

But then I wonder whether this 'love' thing is a bit of a misnomer - everyone has different ideas of what constitutes love, and mine has really changed over the past ten years. Used to think it was the butterflies stuff; now I feel like it's something that grows over time and that you build together. I have a feeling he is the same, and will be a slow grower, which on the one hand I am comfy with but then the needy, anxious part of me worries it will never happen and wants him to adore me NOW.

Sorry, this isn't very coherent. I guess I'm just weighing up whether this worth continuing.

38 and hasn't loved anyone. Has already potentially messed around someone who was 36 and anxious for kids. Should I just get out now?

"if I'm going to be feel anxious like this all the way through"

His previous partners wasn't anxious or needy, he made them that way. He's been playing this game a long time and is really good at it.

I was in the 'dump him' camp on your other thread. I felt that you were going with the replies you wanted to hear. I'm in my 50's. I've seen his type over and over and had friends who've sacrificed their fertility for them. He might get into his late 40's/early 50's and land a younger girlfriend. Then he'll push for children because he's running out of options.

He's partly telling you what you want to hear, without saying it. On your breakup he'll remind you that he never said yes and it was your anxiety and neediness that made you feel the way you did. You'll join a long list. Do you not think that his pp thought he'd slot into her life? That's not what the potential father of your children should do. That's what stray animals do.

Date the other guy, experience the difference. Pack in the amateur psychology when it comes to men who play mind games, you won't figure them out.

How has that message from the other guy changed your feeling towards current guy?

Not all women want children and not all men want them either. There’s nothing wrong with that.

In your case, you want children, he seems he isn’t interested but you’ve known him what, two months? It’s far too early to be pushing for this but I understand you don’t have the luxury of waiting for years.

Frankly, I don’t think you’re suited. You already posted about dumping him due to his job prospects and now it’s his previous dating experiences.

You can have children without being in a relationship. I wouldn’t wait around for someone to make that choice for you.

If its any help, I met dh when he was in his mid 30s. He'd not had a proper gf before. To be honest, his past history didn't seem relevant. He did enjoy useful stuff like cooking though! 20 yrs later we're still solid.
Fertility wasn't an issue for us (I'm a fair bit younger than him) which reduced the pressure significantly. I think he'd have run a mile if I'd pushed him on that one tbh.

Has he secured a job yet?

I think he is stringing you along. Vague promises of two years so you shut up about it.

He sounds a bit wishy washy, going along(but only so far) with what you want. Personally I would need someone with a bit more positivity and direction about what he actually wants, particularly concerning children.

@rainkeepsfallingdown

I think if you want kids enough to freeze your eggs, you should be dating someone who actively wants them, not someone who might perhaps eventually one day maybe want them but if not, that's okay.

I sense you would be heartbroken if you couldn't have children, whereas this guy isn't on that page, at all. Doesn't make him a bad person, just doesn't make him the one for you. You have very different priorities, and some are just non-negotiable.

I agree with this 100%

As a guy, if I was dating someone for a few months and got psycho analysed and told to make time frame commitments to having kids, I'd be running a mile.

To me it sounds like you just want a sperm donor and not an actual relationship which can take time to progress. Your desperation is palpable. He can probably sense that you only want him as a potential father of your children and that understandably is putting him off. Sorry.

However, the fact that you're messaging another man and asked him if he wanted kids shows that you're not actually that bothered about your current boyfriend.

I do understand your predicament though. In your shoes I might consider taking time out from finding a life partner and have a baby with an actual sperm donor. Then when the pressure is off in a few years time, you can concentrate on the actual man himself rather than his ability and willingness to father kids at short notice.

I do think your anxiety is telling you something. If you're 100% certain you want kids soon then you need to be with someone who also feels the need to do that soon. I don't see any assurances coming from this guy that's what he's looking for.

You should only continue with him if you want that relationship more than you want kids. Otherwise, toss this one back and go looking for someone else. Let him know why you're doing it and that you're not sure he really wants a family any time soon.

I also think finding a sperm donor is something to consider.

I think that’s a perfectly fair comment, @Saucy99. OP, you are the person who wants children and is (understandably) anxious about timings, but in the nicest possible way, this is not the problem of a new boyfriend. He’s not in the least unreasonable to not be thinking about having a child until he sees how the relationship develops.

Just carry on your relationship. You clearly like him...

Freeze your eggs. That's a good idea whether you're single or whether you're in a relationship. Mother Nature isn't that helpful at times.

But the ltb because he doesn't want kids yet responses that you might get I would find it more of a red flag that some people would want to discuss having kids within a year.

As someone that has just fallen pregnant accidentally in a new relationship and it's an absolute shit show.. give yourself a time line. And if it doesn't happen in a relationship you can always leave, and go and do it by yourself etc x

To the people that are reading this as me having asked him to commit to a timeline, just to clarify - I haven't done this. He said his previous girlfriend had said one year, and that then led to our conversation about me being in a similar position to her in relation to egg freezing and knowing I want children etc. HE was then the one that said we should talk about this again, that asking if he wants kids is totally understandable at this age (and that many would ask on the first date as opposed to months in like us), and he basically suggested coming up with some sort of timeline, using two years as an example, and said he would feel comfortable with that. I then said that sounded good, and that I found this all difficult to talk about, and he said we should schedule another chat and this doesn't need to be something that I should feel afraid to talk about. So I haven't exactly given him a timeline, but I have agreed to the one suggested by him. I just know that in reality it means nothing as the relationship needs to be right etc to have kids, and I'm worried that when we get to that time he still won't want them then, and / or I will ruin the relationship before that with this growing sense of anxiety and pressure, and because there is a mismatch in our attitudes (me as a definitely want kids, he has wants kids but would be okay without them).

Feeling really sad at the prospect of letting him go. I really like him and feel like we work really well together. But very close to doing it as feeling super anxious right now having read the general consensus that this is too much of a risk to take.

@Saucy99 does this still sound like too much of a pressured conversation? I feel like he was the one to lead it, to be honest.

Yes it’s intense to be having a conversation about a possible timeline of 2 years to have kids with someone you’ve known for 2 months! You should be with someone who wants kids for sure and then you need to relax and enjoy building and a relationship with that person before deciding when to have babies with them. OP, you can do this - you still have time to work on your dream but this isn’t it. If it was, you wouldn’t be secretly texting to ask another man if he wants kids.

He doesn't want children within your fertility time frame, which is fair enough, he should just be honest. He has conveniently slotted into your lifestyle, as he did with his previous girlfriend and doesn't want it messed up by him telling the truth.

But that's not what you want to hear.

Decide if you want children, if you do, then end it, because it won't willingly happen with him.

It isn't a pressured conversation. My DD (34) has been with her DP since they were 17, they don't want children. All of their friends who do, both male and female, who are dating, are having these conversations from the start. It's a category on dating sites, because it's important to be on the same page with this, or for women, it won't happen.

He was with a women for a year and didn’t love her.

He was dicking about.

He is very passive and is encouraging you to freeze you eggs because it makes no difference to him as he might not be here in a year.

He is a drifter that likes physical contact.

Don’t let this turn in a sunken costs fallacy, your now preparing to settle as your accepting that he might grow to love you’

Your initial thoughts about him were actually spot on but your ignoring him now because your getting a bit desperate to settle and have kids.

A friend of mine travelled the world and didn’t manage to meet that special person, despite having relationships. When she was 39 she met ( what she thought) was the love of her life, six months in he told her he had had a vasectomy and wouldn’t be trying to reverse it. Her work colleagues told her ‘don’t let some you love go because they don’t want anymore kids’ and ‘are kids really that important?’ So she stuck with him and got engaged and bought a house. Only the guy is a serial cheat and she ended up leaving him. She’s 41 now. She’s still in some weird in/our relationship with him which I think is really sad. I don’t believe he had any intention of marrying her It was just to offer some form of promised commitment

OP,

I get from your posts that you are desperate for it to be right more than you are desperate for him.

His conversation was full of contradictions.
I'd love to hear his ex's side.
You have heard a very helpless sanitised version....

He sounds pleasant but a drifter.

Your gut is warning you and you are anxious because you are trying to talk yourself around.

I think if men say at his age they are ok if they don't have children but are open to it, I really think you take it as they aren't really pushed either way.

I think unfortunately a future with him will be all about you pushing, working, organising and paying for it.

He may be a nice man, but he is a coaster, he will drift along with you happily until it no longer works for him.

It's not a good idea to be so definite in all that you want with someone so vague.

You are a ball of stress because you are so desperate for him to fit this bill.

Nearly 4 years out of work just says so much about who he is.

His ideal woman is a high flier who doesn't want children, wants a partner who supports her other than financially.

I bet he would love this.

Children are a huge commitment, I think he genuinely likes you but I don't really think he's pushed about kids.

You deserve better

I think you have come to a conclusion that it may not work out and whilst painful perhaps it is time to end the relationship.

Thanks everyone. @billy1966 I suspect you are right. I was feeling good about everything with him until that conversation, which crystallised my background worries that we weren't exactly on the same page.

Wish I'd asked this sooner, before becoming attached.

My feelings - and his openness to talking about this and even putting a timeline on himself - are making this a difficult decision to make. But I guess I don't have a crystal ball and can only take action based on what I know. Which is that he has already spent one year with a woman in my situation, and she became more and more of an anxious wreck. And I'm already on the way there.

If you want children & commitment, I don't think he is the man for you

@hellotesting123123 Why can't you date the current guy and this other guy who just asked you out? You have only been dating for a few months, you are still finding out about each other, as you have found out! There might still be other dealbreakers that may come out. The new guy might be better, he might not be. There is only one way to find out! If I were you, I would date as much as I can right now and with each guy you date, it will help you clarify what is important and what is not. And it's easier not to invest in just one person. It can take months before you realise you want to carry on with that one person. Good luck!

I'm in the dump him camp.
I think it's very unfair to you, for him to string you along into "maybe having kids in 2 years time"
He knows what you want and how fertility works. I would worry that you'll get 2-4 years down the line and he would still be saying the same things.
I had an ex like that. With his actions, it seemed like he really cared for me. He treated me really well. With his words, he would tell me lovely things.
But actually he was not entirely committing to a future with me, but the present was nice.
I broke up with him and met my now DP a few months after. DP knew exactly what I wanted and what my deal breakers were and I knew his. We were just up front and honest about what we wanted for our futures.

You need to be clear that you want children and when you want them. & he needs to be clear if that's a yes or no.
E.g. if you want a baby in 2 years time, it may be that you need to start "trying" for a baby in 12-16 months. Is he prepared to do that?

And remember There are people out there who want what you want too.