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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to give money to the ladies who literally lie flat on their faces in the street?

351 replies

pa1oma · 15/08/2020 19:17

I was wondering if I could ask people’s opinions on something please? ... In recent weeks / months when I’m out and about shopping, I’m seeing noticeably more of the (mainly Iranian, I think) ladies who lie on their face in the street, wailing and begging for money. For instance, in Kensington there was another one today and several down Champs Elysees as well as Hammersmith last week and it’s very distressing, but DH says not to give them anything because neither them or their children will see any of it. He says they are being put out their by a gang leader who uses these women and sends them out to beg because they are more likely to get money than a man who is begging. What do people think and do you give money to these women? I’m never sure what to do.

OP posts:
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SchrodingersImmigrant · 15/08/2020 20:24

No matter what city you go to, begging is very much organised and they do not keep the money. Only way to stop it is to stop giving bloody money and instead people should instead donate to adequate charities who can provide support.

LouLaBear23 · 15/08/2020 20:25

@daisypond

I can say that the general population and Roma don’t mix there generally. They’re almost two separate sections of society.

Yes, that’s a fair comment. It’s difficult, because the Roma have a lot of prejudice against them, so maybe we try to mitigate that by referring to Romanians.

True. I suppose that because ‘Roma’ and ‘Romanian’ sound like one and the same, it’s easy to confuse the two.
PhilSwagielka · 15/08/2020 20:25

My brother works for the Home Office and IIRC he's had to deal with a lot of trafficking cases from Albania/Kosovo.

NOTANUM · 15/08/2020 20:27

If you stand outside the Mayfair Hotel at 8am in the morning, you may see gangs of "beggars" being dropped off. Pre-Covid you would see them sitting outside Pret having breakfast (paid, not given free).
I haven't been up in London since Covid broke but this was the case for the years I'd be in the area from time to time.
These are definitely not genuinely destitute.

MostlyAmbridgeandcoffee · 15/08/2020 20:28

Unfortunately your OH is right - though wish there was something that could be done to help those women who are surely modern slaves in their most obvious sense

gamerchick · 15/08/2020 20:29

@langkaw

The Roma women with babies. Do the kids stay under the radar from social services? I've seen a few women begging with babies on edgeware road. This is Child Criminal Exploitation in plain sight surely?
I read once that they drug the babies so they stay asleep and share them with other women. If they die they get replaced with another baby.

Can't remember where I read that though.

SquirtleSquad · 15/08/2020 20:32

Whether it's gangs or genuine need it's very very sad.
I wouldn't give to them but look for a local hostel to support instead.

Lockheart · 15/08/2020 20:34

It's worth remembering that the the vast majority of the truly homeless in this country are not street sleepers or beggars.

Most of the beggars you will see are not homeless but are rather trafficked, mentally unwell, addicts, or in a few cases, chancers.

There was a well known "homeless" chap in the area I live in London. He wasn't actually homeless, he had a flat. But he also had a severe drinking problem, which lead to him sleeping in shop doorways, and which eventually killed him.

TonTonMacoute · 15/08/2020 20:34

Be cruel to be kind and on no account give money.

There is a terribly sad Yugoslavian (at the time) film called The Time of the Gypsies, if you're heart needs hardening a bit.

film

thegcatsmother · 15/08/2020 20:35

Lots of it in Brussels as well inside and outside the Ring. Driving home from a party one night, we saw the change over from a van.

I refused money to a woman begging with her kids, but went and bought filled rolls for them (broodjes) and drinks. She practically threw them at me and demanded cash. I had none, having used the last to pay for her broodjes, and she swore at me, in fluent English, which, considering we were in Flanders, tells you something!

Yoloyohol · 15/08/2020 20:39

Big difference between standard homegrown beggars, random people begging from need and professional beggars who work Europe.

doadeer possibly if it's the same one operating in Crouch end and sometimes Highgate. He and at least three of the A406 lot and two of the current older ladies, live in a shared house in Wood Green, and are dropped off and picked up. The lot with the short crutches lived there before them.

Two of the ladies opposite the RA are pitched at Hyde Park and are part of a family group who were in N.London accommodation until recently.

Bulgarians at Finsbury Park mosque are definitely gang run allegedly by Albanians.

Who is who, is quite complicated. Some are here voluntarily and the gangs are work opportunities for them with shared profits, as they arrange everything including when they get arrested or deported.
The women nearly always belong to this group.

Others always men, come over as laborers but prove to be no good or there isn't enough work, and are sent to work alongside the first group by handlers, but they get the worse pitches and don't make much.
The ones with drink and drug issues are often in trouble with the handlers, and reputed to be entirely trafficked to repay debts.

The 2 well known North London blind accordion players aren't gang run, they're independent Roma pan handlers, as are the Roma Big Issue sellers.

OnTheWheelOfLife · 15/08/2020 20:40

Some of the posts on here are really judgemental.

I had someone in my life who was made homeless. It wasn’t his fault, he was lovely but his mum got a new boyfriend who was abusive and threw him out when he was a teenager. He used to make secret calls to her. Years later he was still on the streets. He used to try and get arrested to get a warm bed for the night. Not everyone is making loads of money and having a. Fine life ‘begging’. For some it’s all they have and they get out of their faces on drugs and alcohol to escape what must be a horrific life.

I do agree that these issues that you are referring to are often down to trafficking and I would be looking into contacting a relevant charity or the police to get advice rather than funding.

Mumsie007 · 15/08/2020 20:41

My goodness some of the comments! Why dont you just speak to them and help them?

heartsonacake · 15/08/2020 20:42

@Mumsie007

My goodness some of the comments! Why dont you just speak to them and help them?
Passers by cannot provide the sort of help these people need. Don’t be so naive.
mrsjoyfulprizeforraffiawork · 15/08/2020 20:44

I work in the Harley Street area (between Oxford St and Regent's Park) and we've had these people for the last several years. They do seem to be run by gangs and it does make you feel bad not to give them something (there are some exceptions to this). Years ago, when I was first going backpacking to Asia, someone told me it was better to give a beggar some food rather than money because then they could eat it but if I gave them money they were likely to have to hand it straight over to someone else controlling them (this is very common in India, for example). I do sometimes give the West End beggars some food and they always seem pleased and do eat it (some of them are quite skinny). The only thing is, if you are buying them something in a nearby shop, remember lots of them are muslims and they can't eat pork products.

fairlyplump · 15/08/2020 20:44

Not a chance !

Lockheart · 15/08/2020 20:45

Because:

  • they very often have no English
  • they will generally not engage, because they know the gangmasters are watching to make sure they don't run away and are scared of repurcussions if they speak to someone
  • they will be frightened of engaging with official help because they will be in the country illegally
  • if you call the police, they'll scatter. They have watchers keeping an eye out for authority.

Think about it for half a minute, seriously.

BertieBotts · 15/08/2020 20:45

Is this happening in the UK now? :( It happens over here a lot (mainland Europe) but the homeless I used to encounter in the UK were generally rough sleepers, not gang controlled. It can feel very manipulative and I don't give to them.

I have not seen children. If I did I would alert the police.

Lockheart · 15/08/2020 20:46

@Lockheart

Because:
  • they very often have no English
  • they will generally not engage, because they know the gangmasters are watching to make sure they don't run away and are scared of repurcussions if they speak to someone
  • they will be frightened of engaging with official help because they will be in the country illegally
  • if you call the police, they'll scatter. They have watchers keeping an eye out for authority.

Think about it for half a minute, seriously.

This was supposed to quote @Mumsie007.
Starsabove1 · 15/08/2020 20:49

@Mumsie007 as another poster has pointed out, it’s not that easy. At all.

Speaking to them is likely to get you a mouthful of abuse for not handing over cash, or getting them into trouble with their handlers who are ruthless and brutal. To the crime gangs these people are as disposable as paper cups.

Dogooding may help you feel better about things but it won’t be appreciated or helpful to the people on the street.

PhilSwagielka · 15/08/2020 20:50

@Mumsie007

My goodness some of the comments! Why dont you just speak to them and help them?
A lot of them don't speak English, or speak very limited English. Someone else mentioned Leytonstone - I used to work for a legal firm there and we got loads of Bulgarian women who'd been arrested for pickpocketing, many of them serial offenders. I'm not sure how many were in gangs, I know some of them came over here looking for jobs as cleaners or whatever with the intention of sending money back to their families. They often had to have English-speaking friends with them when they had meetings with their solicitor.
mrsjoyfulprizeforraffiawork · 15/08/2020 20:50

The ones that I have sympathy with are clearly vulnerable. Some I do think are being run by a gang boss and probably aren't seeing anything of the proceeds themselves (apart from the terrible old crone who sits on doorsteps in Harley Street looking pathetic and moaning and is in league with two well fed men who meet her and go off with her, all smiles together, at close of business - I think she's their mother!). I have also seen one or two others who have their suitcases with them and I suspect they have got into the UK illegally and have nowhere to go, nowhere to live and are still on their own, trying to stay alive.

PhilSwagielka · 15/08/2020 20:53

@mrsjoyfulprizeforraffiawork

I work in the Harley Street area (between Oxford St and Regent's Park) and we've had these people for the last several years. They do seem to be run by gangs and it does make you feel bad not to give them something (there are some exceptions to this). Years ago, when I was first going backpacking to Asia, someone told me it was better to give a beggar some food rather than money because then they could eat it but if I gave them money they were likely to have to hand it straight over to someone else controlling them (this is very common in India, for example). I do sometimes give the West End beggars some food and they always seem pleased and do eat it (some of them are quite skinny). The only thing is, if you are buying them something in a nearby shop, remember lots of them are muslims and they can't eat pork products.
I usually give beggars food or water, especially in hot weather. They pretty much always appreciate it, I've never been told to fuck off, thankfully.

Doesn't India have a lot of professional beggars? Including little kids?

(love the username btw, always nice to see fellow Molesworth fans)

Phbq · 15/08/2020 20:56

I think it’s a mistake to give money to beggers. If I were in charge I’d make it illegal to beg. I would also pump more money into trying to support the most disadvantaged groups in our society.

I can’t stand the fake wailing. It’s awful.

ItsAlwaysSunnyOnMN · 15/08/2020 21:03

The Romanian beggars I have seen in Spain and Italy were quite aggressive but so was the response from locals horrible situation for all and far higher numbers it’s very sad

I would often be told don’t give to child beggars in India, Sri Lanka and parts of SE Asia as I was adding to the problem and they are all gang controlled. How could I turn away from a child that is obviously hungry. Seeing children scavenge and fight over food is the most shocking, saddest and horrifying thing I have ever witnessed. It truly makes me grateful for what we have

And as for those tourists and travellers who made the excuse I have no money words failed me but it’s shocking how mean many people can be

I understand that many will not want to give because we know many are run by gangs but what comes across is the thought of being manipulated or conned in some way. These beggars are not living a great life that any of us would every want to swap places with

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