The song ‘WAP’ does not deserve the fawning plaudits? (NSFW)

[Redolent]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hsm4poTWjMs

WAP by Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion. Stands for Wet Ass Pussy. That’s all what the whole song is about. Consensus seems to be that’s it a great anthem about female sexual empowerment. The New York Times: “An event record that transcends the event itself.” The Los Angeles Times: “A savage, nasty, sex-positive triumph.” For the high-brow publication Pitchfork, Cardi/Megan ‘center themselves as women in order to freely celebrate their coveted power, sex appeal, and A1 WAP.’

Sample lyrics:

“ I wanna gag, I wanna choke/I want you to touch that little dangly thing that swing in the back of my throat.”

“ “Gobble me, swallow me/Drip down inside of me/Quick jump out ’fore you let it get inside of me,”

Rest here: genius.com/Cardi-b-wap-lyrics

——

To me think the crassness of the song is so boring. I’m not outraged or aghast. I just don’t think it’s sexy in the slightest (others clearly disagree). The song talks about pussies so much they may as well be rapping about a pair of shoes. But I cannot seriously accept that this is video and song are anthem of liberating empowerment, with its pole dancing, strip club visuals and sexual cliches. Listen to the song all you want but let’s pretend these are role models.

I think it's great for femenism

Why are the things that are 'great for femenism' (nice typo) always things that benefit men and suit the male gaze perfectly?

Whats with feminists telling other (usually younger) women how they should be women?
Spot on!

I'm getting fed up of some posters on MN acting like feminism is some sort of selective club where "if you don't have the same opinions as me then you're not allowed in"

Ah yes. You (& your friends) weren't into it so it didn't exist.

It wasn't mainstream. It didn't feature in magazines or socially (yes believe it or not women before this generation did used to talk about sex ). Choking was a niche act, it wasn't mainstream amongst young women, some of whom had not even lost their virginity yet. It is a dangerous act, it carries risks, it can kill if not done properly. That's why it always used to be a thing amongst BDSM communities, safe words/signals etc.

Why are the things that are 'great for femenism' (nice typo) always things that benefit men and suit the male gaze perfectly?

I'm fairly sure the poster was saying the thing that is great for feminism is women feeling empowered to DO WHAT THEY WANT.
Are we not allowed to like something just because heaven forbid a man might too?!
I don;t know where women get off telling other women what they should or shouldn''t do or like.

@KingFredsTache

I think it's great for femenism

Why are the things that are 'great for femenism' (nice typo) always things that benefit men and suit the male gaze perfectly?

So the only allowable feminist ideals are those that go against male ideals?

So we women should actively shun our own desires (re sexuality, or otherwise) should they crossover with male ideals?

Not sure it's particularly empowering to tell women to stifle their thoughts or desires in some contrived middle finger to the patriarchy. True empowerment is women feeling able to express their own thoughts and desires.

You telling other women how they should and shouldn't conduct themselves is no more empowering than a man doing the same.

@KingFredsTache

I think it's great for femenism

Why are the things that are 'great for femenism' (nice typo) always things that benefit men and suit the male gaze perfectly?

They aren't always things that benefit men. Some of them do but a lot of them don't. There isn't a rule that something can't be good for women if men enjoy it as well.

So because men use the sexual proclivity of some women to murder others, the answer to that is to stop women expressing such proclivities?

What's your opinion on choking/hair pulling/spitting/slapping (and remember we are talking about these acts being almost solely done to women by men, not vice versa) becoming 'mainstream' sexual acts and simultaneously the rise of violent porn being widely acceptable? Do you think there is a link? Do you think there is a link with any of that and a rise in 'rough sex gone wrong' being used as a murder defence?

@easterflowerss
So the only allowable feminist ideals are those that go against male ideals? So we women should actively shun our own desires (re sexuality, or otherwise) should they crossover with male ideals?
Not sure it's particularly empowering to tell women to stifle their thoughts or desires in some contrived middle finger to the patriarchy. True empowerment is women feeling able to express their own thoughts and desires. You telling other women how they should and shouldn't conduct themselves is no more empowering than a man doing the same

Well said! Completely agree with it all - and I've said as much before - that women telling other women what they can and cannot like is just as bad as men doing it.
Do we have our own thoughts or not?
No doubt will get now "but you can't choose for yourself as no choice is made in a vaccuum!" or "blah blah choosy choice" or some such bollocks.
It comes down to are we our own person, can we choose for ourselves, have our own thoughts and likes or not?
Course we bloody can.

@KingFredsTache

Ah yes. You (& your friends) weren't into it so it didn't exist.

It wasn't mainstream. It didn't feature in magazines or socially (yes believe it or not women before this generation did used to talk about sex ). Choking was a niche act, it wasn't mainstream amongst young women, some of whom had not even lost their virginity yet. It is a dangerous act, it carries risks, it can kill if not done properly. That's why it always used to be a thing amongst BDSM communities, safe words/signals etc.

My grandparents wouldn't have had sex before marriage, and stayed in an awful loveless marriage for fear of societal condemnation should they have divorced.

Societal norms (thankfully) evolve.

But you seem to be forgetting that no one is forcing you to indulge in any of the above if it doesn't interest you! But telling women they shouldn't, where they wish to, in case a man uses it as an excuse to harm a women is so far from true feminist empowerment it's laughable.

Men are accountable for men. They will harm women if they choose to. Stop stifling women and holding them accountable for the actions of men.

True empowerment is women feeling able to express their own thoughts and desires.

Yeah, except you never see the same sort of thing being said about male empowerment do you? You never see a man saying that being able to sing about being choked by a woman is soooooo 'empowering' do you? You never see a man saying that taking off his clothes for money is 'empowering' do you?

To me it's not the song or the video in itself, I actually quite like it and the video is good- it's nice to see women as the leads and dressing how they want rather than the voiceless backing dancers for men. It's the shifting it into the mainstream further that for me is uncomfortable. Of course women can like what they like and talk about it openly, but the main consumers of music are teens, who don't need additional pressure to feel like they have to like x, y and z.

@KingFredsTache

So because men use the sexual proclivity of some women to murder others, the answer to that is to stop women expressing such proclivities?

What's your opinion on choking/hair pulling/spitting/slapping (and remember we are talking about these acts being almost solely done to women by men, not vice versa) becoming 'mainstream' sexual acts and simultaneously the rise of violent porn being widely acceptable? Do you think there is a link? Do you think there is a link with any of that and a rise in 'rough sex gone wrong' being used as a murder defence?

I think men have been murdering women long before the rise of pornhub.

A consenting women should absolutely not have to stifle her desires for fear of OTHER WOMEN blaming them, if a horrible man uses those desires as an excuse to murder her.

Remember, not so long ago men were using female promiscuity / revealing outfits as an excuse for rape.

You're feeding into it. I'm sure your motives are honourable, and I'm sure if you're not into any of the above then it's easy for you to think no women is, and it's totally driven by 'violent porn'.

But the truth is, if it's with a loving partner whom you trust, it's not violent. Having your hair pulled or being choked isn't a violent act where it feeds into BOTH PARTIES' desires.

You're not the gatekeeper for female sexuality.

@KingFredsTache

True empowerment is women feeling able to express their own thoughts and desires.

Yeah, except you never see the same sort of thing being said about male empowerment do you? You never see a man saying that being able to sing about being choked by a woman is soooooo 'empowering' do you? You never see a man saying that taking off his clothes for money is 'empowering' do you?

Because men can freely do so without other men blaming them for x y z. Sadly, as you've shown, women still can't do the same.

These women actually didn't make this song to crown themselves queen of female empowerment. They made the song talking about what they're into, in the same way men have done for decades, and people were SO SHOCKED at women being able to speak so freely that it made the news.

THAT is what is empowering. Being choked etc isn't empowering. And again, no one is forcing you to do absolutely anything you don't want to do. What's empowering is women FINALLY redressing the balance, and talking about their own sexual desires.

It actually would be great if they could speak about their sexual desires and it not be a huge topic of conversation. But until women, such as you, stop using it as a stick to beat them with, those sticking their head above the parapet are indeed empowering.

True empowerment is women feeling able to express their own thoughts and desires.

But only when it suits men though.

You only have to look at the trans debate (not that I want to drag that into this thread!) to see how women are treated when they 'express their own thoughts and desires' that might not benefit males.

I think it's really sad that female rappers have nothing better to rap about than sex. And that to be an empowered female you should talk about sex in the same fashion as a man would.

Some of the stuff Three stallions says is really over the top. She talks about wanting to be abused and dominated during sex and that is apparently empowering, a very confusing message to send to women and girls. There's also a big element of getting paid getting gifts for sex, again very confusing that this is being sold as empowerment.

Many female rappers seem to talk about how fantastic they are in bed and how they get rich men because their genitals are so great. WAP is not original or new. It's just sad that this is how women are illustrating their worth and the only way they get heard. Seemingly no one wants to listen to female rap unless shes talking about sex.

Oh and I don't see male rappers needing to wear fetish gear and simulate sex in their videos. But then the whole music industry has always had a double standard when it comes to that.

Because men can freely do so without other men blaming them for x y z.

And yet.... They don't do they? Generally men don't take their clothes off for money, they make money in other ways. Men don't sing about how they love being choked by women. Surely if they could do it without judgement as you claim, they would be doing it even more than women!

@KingFredsTache

True empowerment is women feeling able to express their own thoughts and desires.

But only when it suits men though.

You only have to look at the trans debate (not that I want to drag that into this thread!) to see how women are treated when they 'express their own thoughts and desires' that might not benefit males.

So your point now is that women are only allowed to speak freely when it suits men?

And you really think the answer to that is to stop women speaking freely when it suits men?? Rather than saying - "yes ok, good first step, now let's keep pushing forward speaking freely where it doesn't suit men"?!

That reasoning is batshit.

But only when it suits men though.

You are still refusing to acknowledge that sometimes it actually suits women and NOT men.

I even linked you to a site where statistical analysis of PornHub showed it was overwhelmingly women who watched this type of thing and not men.

We all know men kill women. Stop blaming women for that.

We all know some men like violent sex. Stop declaring some women can't also enjoy it safely (or fantasise about is as UNsafely as they choose) just because some men do to.

If my husband wants pasta for dinner to I have to automatically choose pizza just so it doesn't "suit the men".

And FFS. I'm as gender critical as the next person but if EVERYTHING has to come back to the trans debate then "feminism" as a whole is going to grind to a halt. We're not talking about trans - we're talking about the sexual desires of WOMEN and how a women being able to express them in however way she chooses is empowering.

Anyway, I'm out. I don't think it's coincidence that choking, gagging, spitting, hair pulling etc during sex has coincided with the rise amongst males in unfettered access to violent porn. I don't want young women thinking that a man putting his hands around her neck and constricting her airway, or shoving his dick do far down her throat that she gags, is normal sexual behaviour. And I don't think it's empowering for women to sing about this stuff, when men don't sing about it equally.

If that makes me a prude who wants to deny women their sexual agency or whatever, then so be it 🤷‍♀️

@Alabamawhirly1

I think it's really sad that female rappers have nothing better to rap about than sex. And that to be an empowered female you should talk about sex in the same fashion as a man would.

Some of the stuff Three stallions says is really over the top. She talks about wanting to be abused and dominated during sex and that is apparently empowering, a very confusing message to send to women and girls. There's also a big element of getting paid getting gifts for sex, again very confusing that this is being sold as empowerment.

Many female rappers seem to talk about how fantastic they are in bed and how they get rich men because their genitals are so great. WAP is not original or new. It's just sad that this is how women are illustrating their worth and the only way they get heard. Seemingly no one wants to listen to female rap unless shes talking about sex.

I agree with all of this. It's sad, it's sexist and it's racist that female rappers tend to only hit the mainstream where they're talking about sex.

It's a totally separate debate, though. The answer is not to put a ban on women talking about sex. Female rappers do that, and for some reason people don't care. That's what needs to be addressed.

I think that a lot of women are just as angry with other women who want us to behave, be graceful, be dignified, don't talk about sex, don't be too sexy, don't enjoy doing anything sexually that benefits men etc as they are with misogynistic men. I think that singing graphically about sex is their way of sticking two fingers up at those women tbh.
I think a lot of young women are fed up of being told what to do by other women as much they are fed up of being told what to do by men.

@KingFredsTache

Anyway, I'm out. I don't think it's coincidence that choking, gagging, spitting, hair pulling etc during sex has coincided with the rise amongst males in unfettered access to violent porn. I don't want young women thinking that a man putting his hands around her neck and constricting her airway, or shoving his dick do far down her throat that she gags, is normal sexual behaviour. And I don't think it's empowering for women to sing about this stuff, when men don't sing about it equally.

If that makes me a prude who wants to deny women their sexual agency or whatever, then so be it 🤷‍♀️

The rise in diverse sexual desires, across men and women, is of course linked to the availability of porn.

Men and women watching more porn has allowed men and women to be more sexually experimental.

You not liking choking / hair pulling etc. is great for you. Great that you're empowered to express that. It's also great that Cardi B can express the opposite.

Men are not killing women at a greater frequency now that some women feel free to express an interest in different sexual acts. Maybe the excuses have changed, but the acts haven't. They'll always have an excuse. Silencing women isn't the answer.

@MynephewR

I think that a lot of women are just as angry with other women who want us to behave, be graceful, be dignified, don't talk about sex, don't be too sexy, don't enjoy doing anything sexually that benefits men etc as they are with misogynistic men. I think that singing graphically about sex is their way of sticking two fingers up at those women tbh. I think a lot of young women are fed up of being told what to do by other women as much they are fed up of being told what to do by men.

I agree. I think women are used to battling against men. It's so frustrating to feel as though we also have to battle against the judging eye of other women.

It's so frustrating to feel as though we also have to battle against the judging eye of other women

Definitely!