To think very few women would marry their deceased sister’s widower?

[Albless]

My friend was always aware that his grandfather had been married twice, and that the first wife died. His grandmother was the second wife, and his DF was the only child of that second marriage. There were some children from the first marriage.

Some family history research has revealed that his grandfather’s first and second wives were sisters. Two years after the first wife died, the widower married his sister-in-law. The law allowing this to happen was only passed in 1907, about 20 years earlier.

My friend is not particularly interested in family history. But I was really taken aback when he said marrying a dead wife’s sister is probably more common now than it used to be!

I completely disagree - I think very few women would have any interest at all in marrying their brother-in-law if their sister died.

He thinks I’m wrong. I said I’d put it to MN.

AIBU?

@EyesOpening

*woman, obviously.

I'm glad you put that as I'd started to think there were a lot more odd things going on than marrying your dead spouse's sibling!

Two of the Jackson 5 married, and had children with, the same man.
He used to be married to his mother’s sister
My gran married her second husband

None of that makes sense.

The Jackson 5 were men.
One can't marry your aunt.
And your gran ?

My father in law died in 2015. In 2016 my mother in law began a relationship with his brother..That's a current day story for you. It's a been a tricky one for their kids to get their heads round but ultimately they are happy, they bring eachothet comfort and companionship and we don't like to think too deeply.about whatever attraction might have been lurking there before.

If you read enough Latin American magical realism, you'd believe it happened as a matter of course

@NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite

It has happened on several occasions in my ancestry. One was even more complicated: A 2nd Great Aunt died and her sister then married the widower. He subsequently died and she then married his brother. It was very common.

In my family tree I have a few first cousins who have married too including one set of Great Grandparents.

The most shocking thing to me is the frequency of having a child die and then, when the next one of the same sex came along, naming it the same. It's just something I think most people would find inconceivable today.

The name thing is very bizarre in today's terms. Generally it was done because the baby was named after someone, so you named the next one after that person again.

It's a very handy thing in genealogy research because families who did that were more likely to follow traditional naming patterns. So if baby number 4 is named after a grandparent when their siblings follow a pattern then it's instantly clear there was another child before them to search for.

Just in case anyone is interested in forbidden marriages and their timelines:
www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570145.html

This happened in my family. I am 30, it was my great grandfather.

@EyesOpening

*woman, obviously.

I'm glad you put that as I'd started to think there were a lot more odd things going on than marrying your dead spouse's sibling!

Two of the Jackson 5 married, and had children with, the same man.
He used to be married to his mother’s sister
My gran married her second husband

None of that makes sense.

The Jackson 5 were men.
One can't marry your aunt.
And your gran ?

I know it doesn't make sense, that was my point, they were things that other people had put - obviously that's not what they meant to put, I just found it amusing
(and My gran married her second husband he wouldn't have been a husband if she hadn't married him)

I think in the past it was quite common that, if a wife died and there were children, an unmarried sister of hers would be expected to go and help with the childcare. I can see how this would lead to marriage.
I agree with you, OP, definitely not that common now! Thank god

Think it was relatively common in a number of non-european cultures in the past.....sitting here vaguely remembering my old sociology lectures.

My great grandmother married her sister's widdower. She cared for the children and had one of her own. I think it was quite common.

Afaik illegal in the U.K. until the just after WW1.

I am in my 50s when my sister died 20 years ago in Italy, some of the old people from the village started saying how it would be good for my BIL to marry me or my other sister (both unmarried at the time) so he would have someone to take care of my niece and nephew.

This was only about a week after the funeral. and I got the impression that this was very common in their generation and considered the best solution for a widower with young children. My sister and I were really not impressed with the idea and I imagine BIL was even less so!

@pufflingmuffin

My father had an affair with my mothers sister. It tore our family apart and repercussions are still felt today. My parents had 3 children and he went on to have 2 with my aunt. This was 1990 although the affair went on for years before. He has never married her though.

I'm trying to think who I would be more pissed off at in that situation if I were your DM- can't decide.

Catherine of Aragon was initially married to Henry’s older brother Arthur, Prince of Wales’s but he died not lying after. She said the marriage had never been consummated (although the morning after the wedding he asked his attendants for a drink saying he had “been in the midst of Spain” and that marriage was “thirsty work.” ) It thus became the most controversial wedding night in history.
Henry wanted to marry Catherine but under canon law if the marriage had been consummated it would be incestuous: Leviticus states
"Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness." and “If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing...they shall be childless." To be on the safe side they got a dispensation from the pope giving permission to marry.
Catherine got pregnant many times, but only one daughter survived. Henry came to believe that this was as good as being childless. because he needed a son. Conveniently this coincides with him falling for Anne Boleyn.
He tries to have the marriage annulled but Catherine refused - it would mean she had been living in sin and her daughter was illegitimate. She never wavered in her insistence that her first marriage was unconsummated. The pope refused to grant an annulment.
It became a question of whose word was law - the king or the pope. Henry broke with Rome, made himself head of the English church, and the marriage was declared void.

"he said marrying a dead wife’s sister is probably more common now than it used to be! hmm

I completely disagree - I think very few women would have any interest at all in marrying their brother-in-law if their sister died."

you are comparing two different things. A woman marrying her dead sister's widower, yes, I'd agree very unusual indeed. A man marrying his dead brother's widow, less unusual.

It's a cultural thing, a religious thing, and also maybe viewing wives and children as needing to be cared for/held within a family, which I don't think translates to males. But there may well be a case of friends of women who die marring their widowers.

I know a family where this happened. The first sister got a brain tumour and died, leaving several small children. Her sister ended up moving in and then marrying her BIL. Their children are half siblings and also half cousins.

I also knew someone whose father had moved in with his wife's sister after his marriage ended (couldn't divorce in Ireland back then) and ended up with cousin/sibling children. I am not sure if the relationship was the cause of the marriage's demise or if it came afterwards. The child I knew said it was a nightmare.

Test

I’m imagining being married to either of my BIL’s...in both cases, murder would be committed by someone. Talk about incompatible.🤣

My grandma married her deceased sister's husband. The family joke was that the dying sister whispered 'look after my husband' to my grandma on her death bed and my grandma took that a bit too literally.

as with pp my mother married her sister's husband - dd died & year later my aunt died - both suddenly - dm was very sad without dd grief brought them together they knew each other as in laws throughout their lives they came from the same town
why shouldn't they?
Crikey I can think of worse things & I would have been worried about her marrying someone I didn't know - they were happy he loved my dc & they loved him - he was a good man & I always thought of him with affection

I know of a relatively recent (1990s) situation where this happened, where the wives were identical twins.

Probably common back then.

Now you'd be thought of quite badly, although behind your back usually. I don't have a sister, but if I did I wouldn't marry their husband after they died. Wouldn't do that with a friends husband either. It's just wrong and weird.

Historically it's is more common than you might expect.

Marriage wasn't always about love - it was about prosperity.

About certain families aligning themselves for financial and political gain.

In that regard one sister was as good as another.

You also forgot about the dowry - in many marriage contracts it had to be paid back if the wife died without producing "issue" and one way to avoid this was "providing" a new wife.

I feel people forget this isn't a phenomenon that's in the deep past. To a degree it goes on today with "introductions" being made in various social circles and it certainly exists within some religious communities.

It wasn't unusual at the time. I think it was considered the right thing to do. I get it. They would share a common bond and I guess offers some protection to the kids. I wouldn't think it was a bad thing to do, even these days, although it would be pretty unusual now.

I know someone who had an affair with their wife's (much younger) sister. She was only a couple of years older than the couple's DCs, they'd basically grown up together. It's not spoken about in the family, except by the wife - shockingly they're still together. And they forgave the sister. But now wife can't resist needling them both about it occasionally. It's very uncomfortable. And the (now adult) children have a strange mixture of love & disrespect for their aunt.

NC'd for this, obviously, as massively outing.