To think very few women would marry their deceased sister’s widower?

[Albless]

My friend was always aware that his grandfather had been married twice, and that the first wife died. His grandmother was the second wife, and his DF was the only child of that second marriage. There were some children from the first marriage.

Some family history research has revealed that his grandfather’s first and second wives were sisters. Two years after the first wife died, the widower married his sister-in-law. The law allowing this to happen was only passed in 1907, about 20 years earlier.

My friend is not particularly interested in family history. But I was really taken aback when he said marrying a dead wife’s sister is probably more common now than it used to be!

I completely disagree - I think very few women would have any interest at all in marrying their brother-in-law if their sister died.

He thinks I’m wrong. I said I’d put it to MN.

AIBU?

@MorrisZapp

The worst I saw was a man who married his step daughter after his wife died. She had been two years old when her mother had married him.

That marriage would be deemed void in the UK as it’s a prohibited relationship. It would be ok if she had been over 18 when he became her step-father but it’s not legal to marry a step-daughter who became such when she was only two!

@Bluntness100

Christ, I’d not want to marry my bil and I’d put good money on him not wanting to marry me. Plus my sil would take issue with it..🤣

I can see how decades ago it would be more common, smaller social circles, smaller distances travelled etc, two single people, keeping the family together.

But I find it strange if I’m honest.

Tbh when looking at my family history, it surprised me how much people did move after 1840 and the start of the industrial revolution and how big their social circles were. In someways bigger than today because people knew everyone locally - today we barely know our neighbours.

I'm pretty sure the law was changed around the time of the First World War with the reading that there were so few young men left to marry and if you couldn't marry your bro in law that reduced the pool further.

However I'm basing this on my memory of the final Flambards book which I haven't read in several decades.

Okay so it was changed in 1907 to allow men to marry their dead wife's sister and in 1921 to allow women to marry their dead husband's brother:

api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1921/jun/28/deceased-brothers-widows-marriage-bill

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. It wouldn’t have been that they liked each other but more from a perspective of who else could have loved the first wife’s children like her own other than her own AND possibly retained grand parent ties. At that time their probably was a culture of a new wife bringing in her family and not being interested in the previous wife’s children.

Although I certainly would not entertain the idea and feel queasy at the thought Ivan kind of understand it in the circumstances of the time. So if the law was passed in 1907 and the got married 20 years later (I.e 1927) then at this time there was a massive shortage of men (or at least not disabled men) available to marry due to the carnage of the First World War. This led to the so-called "surplus women" so under the circumstances marrying your brother in law may have been the best available option. Still feeling queasy at the thought though - brrr shudders.

Crikey! Both of mine were pre 1907 marriages! How did that happen? No one checked?

@GrimDamnFanjo

Crikey! Both of mine were pre 1907 marriages! How did that happen? No one checked?

Probably not checked. Were both marriages in england or elsewhere in the uk? Church weddings or not?

Happened in my family, tho the older brother died before he got married and the younger brother married the deceased brother's fiancée

Back in the 1930s

@lyralalala both in England. One in the same church! A small place so everyone must have known....

@Albless

My friend was always aware that his grandfather had been married twice, and that the first wife died. His grandmother was the second wife, and his DF was the only child of that second marriage. There were some children from the first marriage.

Some family history research has revealed that his grandfather’s first and second wives were sisters. Two years after the first wife died, the widower married his sister-in-law. The law allowing this to happen was only passed in 1907, about 20 years earlier.

My friend is not particularly interested in family history. But I was really taken aback when he said marrying a dead wife’s sister is probably more common now than it used to be!

I completely disagree - I think very few women would have any interest at all in marrying their brother-in-law if their sister died.

He thinks I’m wrong. I said I’d put it to MN.

AIBU?

Doesnt this have fairly biblical roots.

Iirc from genesis it was fairly expected for a brother to marry his brothers widow.(even if she didnt quite want to)

[quote GrimDamnFanjo]@lyralalala both in England. One in the same church! A small place so everyone must have known....
[/quote]
Catholic church or Anglican?

Oh's grandad married his brother's fiancee after brother died in WW2. Had always been friends and mutual grief brought them closer together.

Tudor history:

Katherine of Aragon married Arthur Tudor, heir to throne of England. He died. She was subsequently betrothed to Prince Henry after some consideration over whether or not she should actually marry King Henry VII, whose wife had died by that point. He was her father-in-law. Ended up marrying her first husband's brother, King Henry VIII. All v convenient for keeping her dowry in the country. Considered a bit iffy even then but as long as Pope issued a dispensation then it didn't matter anymore. Dispensation was issued.

Roll on twenty or so years. Her being older than him is now showing, plus no son, multiple miscarriages and heading for menopause. Henry meets Anne Boleyn and suddenly his conscience starts troubling him because he married his dead brother's widow. Digs out a verse in Leviticus saying it's an unclean act and the couple will be childless (ignoring his daughter from Katherine.) Says dispensation shouldn't have been given by Pope as Katherine had slept with Arthur so beyond Pope's authority.

Much discord in country. Some theologians dig out verses in Bible saying you SHOULD marry dead brother's widow in order to take care of her and their family. Henry ignores that bit of Bible! Arguments reign over whether or not the marriage is valid. Katherine had always claimed marriage with Arthur had never been consummated so therefore never truly married so irrelevant if dispensation should or should not have been issued as not needed anyway. Then there is talk of a dispensation that said marriage to Henry was fine even if first marriage had been consummated.

This dragged on for years until Henry decided to set himself up as head of church of England, tell the Pope to get stuffed and get the archbishop of Canterbury he appointed himself to declare the first marriage had been no marriage at all and he could marry Anne. (Strangely, didn't seem to be bothered by fact he had had an affair and at least one child with her sister! Was also rumoured he had slept with their mum, but no evidence of that other than court gossip) Thousands of people executed, some brutally, monasteries and convents pulled down, the religion of the country overturned.

So this has been a huge issue for centuries, with the brightest and most powerful people squabbling over whether it's okay or not.

Personally...eww! Far too close.

This happened in my family and I was a little shocked when I found out. The sister of my great grandmother x 3 was widowed with one child and was already living with my great 3 x great grandparents. When my 3 x great grandmother subsequently died, my 3 x great grandfather was left with three motherless children. He was desperately poor - as was his widowed sister-in-law - and could not work without someone taking care of his children. Presumably his sister-in-law loved her nieces and nephew and it made practical sense all round for them to be married. Whether they loved one another I don't know but they went on to have two children together.

Yes, it's definitely common place in Gambia today. Recently my best friends SIL died so her widower
married her sister within weeks. Apparently as long is there is an unmarried sibling of the deceased, a marriage is expected and normal.

@lyralalala Anglican. Parish church.

I know a woman who ended up married to her sisters ex boyfriend, whom she reconnected with at her funeral
I think it's weird....

I think it was common back in the day. Often someone was needed to look after the children. It happened in STBEH family, the wife died in childbirth a few weeks later he married her youngest sister. I'd find it a bit odd nowadays though. I suspect it still happens a lot in other countries where people die younger.

I doubt it would be more common now but I can see how sharing grief and how marrying someone the kids already have a bond with could work.