To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

@whereamitoday, absolutely there’s prejudice and privilege in government. But banning private schools will not eliminate that. Firstly, all that would happen is that certain state schools would be situated in catchments with house prices unobtainable to most. They’d also end up with donated facilities that most schools can currently only dream of. Lottery bussing doesn’t work especially at primary level.

Secondly, the current government isn’t in power because the were only voted in by private school elite. Some of the poorest areas of the country voted for Johnson and his shower of incompetents. And all under the grossly mistaken belief that leaving the EU would somehow make them better off.

If you were in my position right now with my dd and you could afford private and chose not too, I would say that's morally reprehensible and I'd judge you. And so would your child

I don't think my ds judges me for not sending him to private school even though we could have afforded it. You can only do it safely if the five years fees (for secondary) is in the bank. You can't rely on stable jobs - anyone can lose their job at any time and I didn't want to send him to private school and then end up having to take him out again because I lost my job. I don't think he did any worse academically at his state comprehensive than he would have done at the local private school anyway.

@VinylDetective, @year5teacher and @whereamitoday - thank you- nice to have some kindred spirits on MN.

@lazylinguist - No you couldn't make it illegal (if only haha) but perhaps the electorate would take a dim view of politicians sending their kids abroad?
Or perhaps not judging by the posts on here!

Of course change doesn't happen quickly or easily but I hate the attitude that it's not even worth trying as it suggests that great swathes of the population are doomed to relive the lives of previous generations.

@Tollergirl

You really that abolishing private schools would make the elite educate their children in state schools and thereby raising standards? Why do Diane Abbott and Shami Chakrabarty not send their children to state schools then? This socialist utopia exists in fairytales only. Some animals become more equal than others in the idea you propose.

I was against private school when I was an NQT like the op. Then life happened, I had my own kids, life's twists and turns meant I got offered a job in a private school and I feel very differently these days (11 years on). I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion of abolishing private schools, although I'd have been with you 11 years ago.

Life's not fair
No kidding.
So what's the problem in making it fairer? There's much you can't change. But this, we can.
Crikey I expect down through history reformers have had that remark thrown at them.

@lazylinguist - No you couldn't make it illegal (if only haha) but perhaps the electorate would take a dim view of politicians sending their kids abroad?

Well some of them would take a dim view and some of them wouldn't. But taking a dim view of the actions of politicians is pretty standard and it never seems to stop them or stop people from voting for them.

I know it's depressing to be so defeatist, but you simply can't expect most people to voluntarily give up benefits and privileges which they are legally allowed, especially when it comes to their children. Even people who are otherwise very moral and principled are often prepared to throw their ideals out of the window when it comes to securing their child's future. And most of us can understand that impulse, even when we disagree in principle with their actions.

@sst1234 - I can't answer for Diane Abbott or Shami Chakrabarti I'm afraid.

And as for the old "only exists in fairytales " trope - that could have been said for many inequalities throughout history. Perhaps suffragettes or anti slavery campaigners had those arguments levelled against them too just as @TheoneandObi states.

Of course they are ideals but capitalism has ideals too - many of which we are witnessing in practice.

@Tollergirl but education is already a right

People of all backgrounds have an education

Just some pay for their child to get a private education

The fact many on here refuse to see that children's low aspirations and achievement come from their parents more so than school is ridiculous.

If anyone is interested this exact same debate is going on over on Ash Sarkar’s Twitter.

Many of the same arguments that have been made by posters here on both sides.

I don't think it has occurred to some of you that it is not only the wealthy who send their children private schools.

Many parents make huge sacrifices to pay for their children's education for many different reasons.

Plus. Don't forget that the high taxation of wealthy people in UK goes towards paying for the education of children in state schools.

If private schools in UK are abolished, the rich will leave UK and so affect economy, then there won't be enough in pot to give to state education. Simples.

Nobody can be on here complaining about elitism if they voted in the current government.
The acute irony is that so many of those who voted for this government are the very people desperately in need of the gap narrowing.

If private schools in UK are abolished, the rich will leave UK

will they really? As I said above, Finland has no private schooling and no formal exams from 7 - 16. And their education system is ranked very highly - way above the UK. It depends how it's done.

@annon1368 - but where do the parents low aspirations and lack of "achievement" stem from? Their parents perhaps? It's in this way that generations of children are condemned to repeat the low expectations of previous generations.

Instead of blaming them how about offering them a hand up through mixing with children from different backgrounds and accessing a high standard of education and opportunity by attending a great state school? It just might lead to raising aspirations for those who have less than ideal backgrounds.

People are so judgemental about parents who are unable to support their children to aspire to achieve better things without taking into account their own backgrounds. Until the cycle of underachievement is broken it is very hard for many children to reach their potential.

@LesLavandes - ah that old chestnut- all the rich will move!! Where will you go out of interest?

Don't forget that the high taxation of wealthy people in UK goes towards paying for the education of children in state schools

The UK is one of the lowest taxed economies in the western world. Everyone’s tax pays for education.

[quote Tollergirl]@LesLavandes - ah that old chestnut- all the rich will move!! Where will you go out of interest?[/quote]
My friends who moved mostly went to France, Singapore, Australia and the US. The children all go to private schools, some as day pupils, some as boarders.

DH and I get headhunted for jobs overseas at least a couple of times a year and we aren't actively looking.

We like the UK, we like our jobs and the schools here are good (we paid a fortune to live in catchment of good state schools). We could leave easily if we wanted though.

Having loads of friends who have moved country regularly and having done it ourselves in the past means we are really quite relaxed about the idea. Money buys mobility.

[quote Tollergirl]@LesLavandes - ah that old chestnut- all the rich will move!! Where will you go out of interest?[/quote]
Money talks and walks - go where you are treated best! Money is what makes the world go round and to all the equality Marxist would you swap your home with a homeless and are you that virtuous? If I had a Bugatti I would happily swop it for a Learjet.

Eg: nomadcapitalist.com/2017/05/15/how-to-go-where-youre-treated-best/

[quote Tollergirl]@annon1368 - but where do the parents low aspirations and lack of "achievement" stem from? Their parents perhaps? It's in this way that generations of children are condemned to repeat the low expectations of previous generations.

Instead of blaming them how about offering them a hand up through mixing with children from different backgrounds and accessing a high standard of education and opportunity by attending a great state school? It just might lead to raising aspirations for those who have less than ideal backgrounds.

People are so judgemental about parents who are unable to support their children to aspire to achieve better things without taking into account their own backgrounds. Until the cycle of underachievement is broken it is very hard for many children to reach their potential.[/quote]
Exactly. This is basically what I said so many times but constantly got told “no you haven’t answered the question of bad parenting”.

but where do the parents low aspirations and lack of "achievement" stem from? Their parents perhaps? It's in this way that generations of children are condemned to repeat the low expectations of previous generations

And when did this change? For most of the 20th century parents who were manual labourers had very high aspirations for their children and recognised the value of education. Grammar schools offered a gateway to higher education which was accessible because it was free. What went wrong?

You think the cycle of underachievement will be broken by having the kids with crap parents sitting in the same classroom as those with involved parents? Maybe. I still think catchment buggers that up though. It doesn't actually happen that you get a nice diverse mix in a school even now.

I think it is healthy for children to experience how the other half lives. I don't know how to make that happen though. I don't think banning private schools would have any effect, or it would further entrench selection by house price.

@TorkTorkBam and @ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia - thanks for demonstrating my point about selfish capitalism so perfectly. You do what's good for you and don't worry about the rest of society.

PS I wouldn't swap my home but I would support paying higher taxes to support services that work with the homeless. Is that ok with you?

All I can hope is that all these rich private school parents who make such huge sacrifices for their children are tory voters so that when they leave the country they reduce the Tory majority.

Tollergirl - I didn't say 'all the rich' but as a PP said, money gives you mobility.

Some parents will send their children abroad to boarding school. However, when I speak of 'rich' people, I'm talking about extremely wealthy people who perhaps send their children to elite boarding schools in UK and who themselves are contributing hugely into our own economy, which as I mentioned earlier provides for state education.

As far ad the local private school, I expect some parents would try for grammar school, some would have the opportunity to move abroad with work.

I don't think this 'abolishing private schools' will happen anyway

Society is worldwide. We are all humans. Me moving country doesn't make me anti-society any more than you moving job locally for better pay and conditions makes you anti-society.

My children go to state school, I am a governor and I am actively involved in my community. I bet I do a fuck of a lot more to help build a good equal society than you toller

Tollergirl - I just read your last post. You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder about the fair division of money. You aren't at all interested in anyone's perspective