To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

@Bluegrass

Godsowncountry- when you say “Life isn’t fair” do you actually mean “life shouldn’t be fair”, or “I don’t want life to be fair”, or perhaps “ I like it that life isn’t fair”?

If not, and if you think unfairness is a bad thing, I can’t understand why you wouldn’t want to at least take some steps towards reducing that unfairness.

To what extent do you want life to be fair? Some people are smarter than others, what would do, ban them from being smart so they can’t achieve more because it makes those less intelligent feel bad. (And no this comment does not imply that that only smart kids to private schools).

Some parents invest a lot more energy into their children’s attainment, in state and private schools. Is it bad that they do this because some feckless, bad parents have no interest in their children’s education. And yes bad parenting does exist, we can’t take collective responsibility for all bad behaviour of others. And no, income does not absolve people of pushing their children in the right direction for educational outcomes.

Outcomes do not have to be fair. Every child needs a minimum defined standard of schooling and the aim should be to raise the minimum standard all the time, not to find ways of reducing the upper bar because that somehow threatens your socialist tendencies.

And with respect, being an NQT means that you are full of optimism and have nothing but snippets of idealism to base your statements on. You state that you will do this and that within a lesson as if it’s textbook

Fair enough, I did those things throughout my training with quite a hard class and found it doable. My main placement class were challenging, with high SEN and a fair amount of deprivation. It doesn’t always work, but I don’t believe the idea that teachers always end up jaded and not bothering. I said in a reply to someone else earlier in the thread to “ask me after 20 years of teaching”.

Are you a teacher?

Poor families often do not have the means or the ability to help push their children. Many might not even care.

Sadly the latter point is often the elephant in the room. My wife was a teacher, her observations were that there was a sizable minority of parents who can only be described as anti education. While they were lower income households they were not 'poor' but had a culture of contempt for learning and authority. These parents would not bother showing up to parents evenings or show any interest in academic development but would march down to the school to scream at a teacher for putting one of their kids on detention. Rarely would they row in behind and support the school whos member of staff has just been called a cunt by their child but instead accuse them of provoking the verbal abuse or the classic of 'picking on them'. These are the same families whose offspring destroy learning for the majority as they cannot be expelled. A school can have the best facilities and teachers but if some parents are not stepping up to their responsibilities and instilling basic discipline and manners in their kids then you will always struggle to create that learning environment where pupils can excel.

@dwiz8, I don’t think the crux is that the OP teaches primary, I think it’s because he/she is an NQT. Teaching, more than any other career, seems to have the biggest gap between newly qualified idealism and expectations and the reality of the job.
I am in no way trying to minimise the OP’s professionalism by saying that. It’s simply how it is for many, many teachers I know. Incidentally, many of whom send their own kids private after experiencing state education from the inside. And I say all this as a parent who uses the state sector even though we could afford private and have considered it many times.

@Bloomburger

The politics of jealousy 🙄.

It's bullshit that if any of you guys wanting to abolish private schools and hospitals wouldn't be sending your kids to one and popping off to your nearest private hospital rather than sit on nhs waiting lists if you had the money.

Is it? You really think comfortably off people have no principles? I could have afforded private education, no way would I have done it.

Once in my life I’ve paid for healthcare because the length of the waiting list would have meant I’d have gone blind by the time I reached the top of it. Otherwise all my healthcare, including dentistry, has been NHS.

Some of us have principles that aren’t eroded by money.

[quote NellyJames]@dwiz8, I don’t think the crux is that the OP teaches primary, I think it’s because he/she is an NQT. Teaching, more than any other career, seems to have the biggest gap between newly qualified idealism and expectations and the reality of the job.
I am in no way trying to minimise the OP’s professionalism by saying that. It’s simply how it is for many, many teachers I know. Incidentally, many of whom send their own kids private after experiencing state education from the inside. And I say all this as a parent who uses the state sector even though we could afford private and have considered it many times.[/quote]
Oh god yes, everyone enters a job and thinks they can change the world. I do agree it would be interesting if OP came back in 5 years and see if she still thinks she can teach a mixed ability class well enough for all children to excel

I am in no way trying to minimise the OP’s professionalism by saying that.

I just want to say don’t worry, it doesn’t come off that way! Honestly NQTs definitely are idealistic, I think that’s just a given. It’s a completely different stance when you’re one year into your career than 25 years in and you’ve been ground down by it all.

I’m sure everyone says this but I hope I would just quit and find another job rather than plod on providing substandard education for kids because I was tired/drained/disillusioned with it.

That is absolutely NOT to say that all long term teachers provide sub standard education - they provide much higher standards than I can. I have known teachers who have gotten to the point of “there’s no point it won’t make a difference”, and I hope to avoid that, and if not... it probably won’t be the job for me anymore. We’ll see though!

Are you a teacher?

In a past life, yes; but not primary. I do still have extensive involvement in schools though.

I do believe in differentiation and went to a primary school that did it very effectively, but I think that there is a limit at which a skilled teacher probably cannot do it because there is just too diverse a range of abilities. Like @JassyRadlett my secondary school streamed late on. In my class, there were children who couldn't read properly and kids like me who, at 11, were capable of operating at the level of a 14/15 year old. It was hell.

What I would say is that schools have been very defunded and a lot of this has been quite hidden. I am pro immigration btw, but I think that the statistics around immigration and population increase are actually over optimistic about the economic contributions of migrants on ordinary wages because they take into account a marginal cost, but not the cost of actually keeping pace in terms of infrastructure. And we haven't built any! So my previous class size of 28 when I was younger is now 33 at the same school. Near where I grew up there is a primary school with 40 kids in a class. On the continent, primary kids have class sizes of up to 24 (france) or fewer (Germany, Netherlands), so obviously differentiation is easier and closer to what a private school would have here. We are now at a tipping point where people have started noticing this and the gulf is probably likely to grow further because we are not finding proper education infrastructure investment, we are, at best, maintaining.

In my primary school, differentiation was also successfully achieved because at any one time they had at least two SAHMs helping kids with reading and effectively being unpaid classroom assistants, as well as the odd paid one. With more mums working (I am one myself), there is less flex for this kind of support in the classroom and less middle class areas won't get so much of this sadly.

Funding for state education needs to increase so much. And taxes would have to rise for everyone (not just the rich) to do it.

@NellyJames

Are you a teacher?

In a past life, yes; but not primary. I do still have extensive involvement in schools though.

Honestly I appreciate your insight, I don’t think we get anywhere by digging our heels in and saying our way to teach is definitely the best way and definitely always going to work.

Lack of differentiation is a big issue I agree. Seeing it with LCD work sent recently it’s not really fit for purpose for many,

Streaming for yr10 has helped a lot with further maths etc but not sure how much they do earlier,

@LimeLemonOrange

I haven't read the thread.

I sent my DS to private primary for 2 years as his primary went into special measures. He loved it, I loved it.

But I think it's so unfair that rich kids get better educational experiences. So yes I think they should be banned. Which would improve schools for everyone.

So you think private schooling should be banned but it’s fine for you to send your dc there when his state school failed to come up to scratch? Strange logic there.

I have RTFT and am saddened to read so much right wing prejudice on here.

All the "abolishing private schools wouldn't make state schools better" or the "state schools would be flooded with privileged ex private school pupils" or JUST "make state schools better" - talk about being wilfully disingenuous.

Whilst so many in positions of power (government, law, medicine, media, sport etc etc) are drawn from the 7% of people in this country who are privately educated, there is very little will to invest properly and sustainably in public sector education and health.

Until those running the country have to educate their children with the great unwashed and do not have the choice to conduct their lives in a vacuum of elite privilege, there will never be any political will to champion the state sector.

Quite frankly the lack of empathy for parents who struggle to offer their children the support and aspirations to lift them out of poverty and achievement through education is staggering but sadly unsurprising given the success of Tory governments in polarising our society into the haves and the have nots.

It is profoundly depressing to me that the UK will continue to operate in such a blinkered and selfish way.

Real societal change will take generations and if it began at school that would be a fantastic start.

As for those bemoaning lack of SEN support I am truly sorry that you have been unable to access this within the state sector. Having worked within SEN during Labour, coalition and Tory governments I can tell you that there was a strategic dismantling of much good practice by the latter. Not to mention all the Sure Start provision that was aimed at supporting early years in deprived areas.

It makes me very sad that people cannot see past their own little bubble and realise that a better educated population benefits everyone and that if society demands change it is possible. Clearly for many, a large number of whom inhabit MN, perpetuating the system suits them.

Also please don't insult the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who "work hard" "want the best for their children" and all the other virtue signalling bollocks that people use to justify their choices. It's demeaning and only serves to reinforce the idea that some people are more deserving than others when it comes to the hand they have been dealt in life. Much of this is luck, pure and simple. Nearly as bad as the "sacrifices" people are always banging on about that enable them to send their DC to private schools- when the sacrifices most people would have to make would be homelessness and starvation. Just own it - you want to give them the best that money can buy.

In my view education should not be a commodity but a right - available to all regardless of background. If that makes me a Marxist then great- I'll own that too!

Bluegrass if you interview two equally qualified candidates who both went to state school do you choose the candidate who went to the less good state school?

Here's a radical analytical alternative hypothesis take just to add another train of thought into the mix. Just hypothetical so don't be judgemental and bashful! I could be wrong but if so let me know better and where my thinking is lacking as that would be productive constructive critique to improve.

Many posters have assumed a very fundamental theoretical failing. Many have incorrectly assumed two basic factors both of which not always true in reality.

First, private pay yourself schools are always a class above in all aspects all the time - false not necessarily 100% accurate or "guaranteed." Some leading and famous private schools are top of the class some others are merely excellent and not best in breed or world class. Some arguably claim to be excellent but merely very good or just good even. None would be bad! Value for money and return on investment is arguable too for some schools in the private sector.

Second, state sector tax payer funded paid for "free" education is totally or mostly unfit for purpose (whatever that purpose is if not to provide an adequate minimum standard of acceptable compulsory education with a bit of added social development).

Both of these assumptions are normally accurate but of course there are exceptions. Some "lesser" converted private sector schools are excellent but not necessarily class leading.
Conversely some state sector schools (those consistently attaining highest academic results rankings) can and do provide a class leading education for those who have not had to undergo additional expense. Naturally the less transparent expense incurred may be costs of more expensive housing in the small best of state school catchment areas and some extra investment in resources, energy, know how and possibly tutoring to make the grade unless you happen to be that one child from an improvised dysfunctional family in an inner city deprivation hot spot who by being academically gifted and recognised and appreciated by both the parent(s) and initial teachers make it through the free complimentary education system.

There is an assumption that all families have the same needs and desires for educational attainment. It would be foolish to suggest if given a choice there is a guaranteed that one will always without fail select the perceived "better" option. The key word being perception as that well of course depend on your background knowledge and the society you are accustomed to. Unless you customarily always book the presidential suite at the finest most expensive and quality discerning of hotels you will not necessarily choose that if given that choice and a lesser alternative proposition even if you have the financial means or both options complimentary. You may wish to opt for a complimentary lower key less sophisticated option thinking that you may not necessarily enjoy the trappings of the global elite even if say for a short temporary stay. This analogy applies too to other areas not just materialism but to some extent education. Don't always assume every regular income family wants to necessarily win a full scholarship to the perceived better private schools or complimentary paid for state selective grammar. There are some who are big on removing these so called elitist state grammar schools and so many current remaining grammars charge a fee payable by the parent and not covered by the state. You know who you are anti "elitist unfair" grammar and pro comprehensive let's all be the same and equal lovers!

There are as some posters highlighted - many who are content with regular normal schooling and have therefore less of an attainment aspiration than many would believe. Possibly it has been generational and normalised as these families will never want to attend further higher education and will continue to provide the backbone of the unskilled manual labour employment positions. Life is about choice and diversity and not a Marxist all equality state of identical robots. As I mentioned previously this is just real life as there will be royalty, leading entrepreneurs and industrialists and there will be those with lesser means. Not everyone will be the boss nor will everyone be the cleaner etc. We have diversity and we have choice. We even have a choice for those now in less financially stable positions to make it to the top for free if they have the basic skills, educationally gifted, right motivation at the right time and a few lucky breaks. It has happened many times before and so for those who have ambition and wish to try - don't look at those with more (materialism) now but think one day that can be you too! You won't be poor forever and conversely the old money who went to an average fee paying school but not paying attention as distracted and foolish will one day possibly be in a role reversal if they don't pull their socks up as money never guarantees educational or business success but is obviously very helpful and nice to have! We are all born with a brain and it is how you use it to optimise your circumstances (as with life) that counts. As a entrepreneur and employer I will never under play nor over look a potential talent from an initially challenging background as that candidate has been successful already compared to another who had things on a plate and leveraged the right family connections. Just some food for thought to add another angle to this growing discussion!

@Tollergirl. This is one of the rare occasions on which I wish MN had a like button. I wish I’d written that.

Honestly I appreciate your insight, I don’t think we get anywhere by digging our heels in and saying our way to teach is definitely the best way and definitely always going to work.
Well you’re starting off with the right attitude there so I wish you all the luck. All I’d add is that parents’ decisions to pay are very nuanced and it’s rarely a choice they’ve made from an elitist perspective. A great number will have started in the state sector and become disillusioned or found it wasn’t meeting the needs of their child for whatever reason.
Also, I do think we need to focus on closing the gap between high achieving state schools and those at the other end of the spectrum. To me it’s far more of an issue that state provision and results vary so wildly between schools and catchments than it is that we as a family, play tennis and swim at the weekend whereas my neighbour’s child does these things in school time. State education is underfunded but educated parents like me in affluent areas can and do supplement this with lots of input from home and experiences outside of school. A great many others in a different part of town, through no fault of their own, just wouldn’t know where to start; and yes, some others don’t care. Where parents can’t or won’t give the same input, we need to ensure for all our sakes that the state steps up and bridges that gap. Honestly, when you remove public schools and large boarding institutions then there’s a far smaller gap between the attainment of a child of professional parents at a high performing, vibrant comprehensive and a similar child at an independent day school.

[quote VinylDetective]@Tollergirl. This is one of the rare occasions on which I wish MN had a like button. I wish I’d written that.[/quote]
Same!

I'm absolutely horrified by the prejudice and privilege on this thread. No wonder the Tories keep being elected. Your middle class pomposity is perpetuating ignorance and elitism. You only have to look at the stats from A levels yesterday to see the prejudice that exists in government.

Aren't those sort of schools the ones where the girls often have terrible mental health issues? I don't think all girls schools are good, whether private or satte, having been to an all girls' grammar.

I'm a bit late replying to this, but no. I would definitely not say that there were more mental health problems in the private girls' school I taught at or the girls' grammar I went to. Yes there were occasional problems with anorexia or with anxiety in perfectionist high-achieving girls with pushy parents, but there are mental health issues in all schools and all walks of life. I've seen more evidence of them in the non-selective state schools I've worked in tbh. The girls in the private school almost all seemed like well-balanced kids with lovely, supportive families.

@Tollergirl 🙌🙌🙌

A level bias yesterday

Faith schools? Private medicine? Private dentistry? Where do you stop? If private schools were abolished tomorrow the State system wouldn't be able to cope.

Tollergirl - I agree with all of your post, but...

Until those running the country have to educate their children with the great unwashed and do not have the choice to conduct their lives in a vacuum of elite privilege, there will never be any political will to champion the state sector.

They will just send their kids abroad to private schools. I don't think you can actually make the very wealthy or those in power send their children to the local comp, can you? What would you do, ban private schools in the UK, then make it illegal for any politician to send their child to be educated abroad?

I mean, obviously ideally we vote in a (currently non-existent) party made up of wonderful, non self-interested politicians who actually want equality of opportunity and don't want to send their kids to private schools. But that's not happening any time soon, is it?

Let's also have a limit, very low, on how much parents can spend on books for their children as some get more than others and it gives them an advantage.
There has never been, and never will be, a 100% equal society because of human nature, it's totally naive to imagine otherwise. Even without fee-paying schools some children will have the benefit of different parenting.