To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

[quote Tollergirl]**@TorkTorkBam* and @ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia* - thanks for demonstrating my point about selfish capitalism so perfectly. You do what's good for you and don't worry about the rest of society.

PS I wouldn't swap my home but I would support paying higher taxes to support services that work with the homeless. Is that ok with you?

All I can hope is that all these rich private school parents who make such huge sacrifices for their children are tory voters so that when they leave the country they reduce the Tory majority.[/quote]
Where were you in Dec 2019. You did notice what message working class northerners gave, right? It is exactly this ‘other people’s money’ attitude that champagne socialist attitude is famous for. No one one here is arguing for poor education, but you seem to be arguing for lowering the bar, rather than raising it. No it a shred of an argument about how abolishing private schools helps, just that it somehow it magically sweeps away inequality.

I think expecting schools to solve all social ills is the problem. Having investment in being learning ready through schemes such as Surestart would be the way for investment to go.

I have never seen or heard tell of any of these miracles of children influencing other children to higher academic attainment.

(I do know of of kids who are first in their family to go to university. So it's not that the scenario is unknown to me. Imo their pressing need is teachers capable of preparing them for public examinations where they can show their attainment.)

If private schools didn't confer unfair advantage, nobody would pay for them.

I hate the "crap parenting" excuse. I am not talking about abusive or neglectful parenting here but I have a vivid recollection from when I was working with a young child with SEN and meeting his dad. The poor man was excruciatingly uncomfortable and embarrassed talking to me about his son because he explained that he was basically illiterate and had struggled enormously throughout school. This meant that he had struggled to find employment and been unable to achieve a decent quality of life. Was this his fault? Does this make him a "crap" parent? He avoided parents evening and therefore could be regarded as uninterested in his son's education. He loved his son very much and wanted the best for him as much as a high earning private school parent. His son's educational outcomes were largely dependent upon the teaching he experienced because he was unable to access support at home. Why was his son less deserving of a top class education?

@Cheesecake53 let’s turn this upside down: many state schools provide an education so doubtful that parents feel compelled to pay a significant premium for houses close to decent ones, or pay for private education.
All children have a right to a good education, getting rid of private schools won’t help if decent state options are even more expensive....

All I can hope is that all these rich private school parents who make such huge sacrifices for their children are tory voters so that when they leave the country they reduce the Tory majority.

This paragraph reminds of that list that was doing the rounds a few years back showing the educational background of all the Guardian writers and journalists which was overwhelmingly public school followed by Oxbridge

Instead of blaming them how about offering them a hand up through mixing with children from different backgrounds and accessing a high standard of education and opportunity by attending a great state school?

I agree with you about where the low aspirations come from, and I agree that social segregation is a bad thing and that children of all classes and incomes should mix, but I think it's naïve and a bit patronising to think that children of low aspiring families will be given a hand up simply by being in the same building as children from the other end of the scale.

As for the point about attending a great state school, we then come back to the question of how we make state schools great, especially the ones in poorer areas, and especially if we banned private schools, potentially creating more pockets of high-achieving schools in expensive areas populated by wealthy people.

[quote Tollergirl]**@TorkTorkBam* and @ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia* - thanks for demonstrating my point about selfish capitalism so perfectly. You do what's good for you and don't worry about the rest of society.

PS I wouldn't swap my home but I would support paying higher taxes to support services that work with the homeless. Is that ok with you?

All I can hope is that all these rich private school parents who make such huge sacrifices for their children are tory voters so that when they leave the country they reduce the Tory majority.[/quote]
You do understand that was a massive exaggeration to get the basic message across as essentially we all are individually oriented and want the best for our children family and friends. With natural diversity we can never be equal as you will not for instance give up your lifestyle massively (not just addition tax but say give up half or more if required) to ensure more societal equality.

You have to appreciate big business ie the billionaires and CEOs of this world are there because we little normal people help make them where they are collectively. They along with policy makers (elected politicians) run the world and always will. Communism failed and they too are joining the normal capitalist mindset. Even the most populous nation China is only a paper communist nation when it comes to government controls but is in essence a capitalist free for all and many are evidently more equal than others.

Ideally we need to reinstate and promote more traditional free grammar schools and select the best from the masses as some are smarter then others and some drop out or anti school trouble makers! Select those who can and will do something to make a difference!

The private sector have their market supply and demand and is independent from the state sector. You cannot take away the wealth built over centuries say from the old colonial era or impose both a republic and a Marxist one at that. Human behaviour is normally to want more but some want more much much more than others and that is to some very limited extent up to you. Did Jeff Bezos born decades ago think he will one day be too dog!? Don't bash the rich and powerful we all want to be them one day! They pay for us and we help to keep them rich and powerful so it's sort of a win win but more win for them!

Why do people who lean right wing always maintain that anyone who is left wing is middle to upper class? This I will never understand. When talking about people paying top money to send their kids to elite schools, somehow you become the posh one wanting to “spend other people’s money”.

In ideal world, every school would provide equal, excellent schooling and private schools would die out naturally due to lack of demand.

This is not realistic, however, and in the meantime, abolishing private schooling would not fix the attainment gap issues. As PPs have said, what would happen instead is that house prices in the catchments of the best state schools would become prohibitively expensive for low and middle income families.

No private schools in Scandinavia. There is much less inequality in those countries. I don't think there is no correlation between those two things.

What is the statistic? 7% of the population went to private school but the majority of journalists, politicians, judges, etc. in the UK went to private school rather than state schools. Private school students are over represented in most - if not all - higher earner/influential careers.

I heard a great quote that sums up this debate in the UK: "choose your parents carefully".

I can't believe people honestly are happy for their kids to go to a shit comprehensive, when other children have the fantastic facilities at private school. Fair enough adults who have worked hard enjoying the benefits of their money. But why do some children get to have much better education than others because of who they were born to?

Imagine if rich and powerful people knew the conditions in some schools because their kids were exposed it. More investment would certainly be demanded.

Maybe if Johnson's children had to put up with disruption and budget-stricken education that the majority of other kids have to go through. Wouldn't things change?

By the way, I am a teacher and have worked in both sectors. I know the difference. I also have known some kids who are the private system would sink like a stone in the state sector and other kids in the state system got lost and who would have thrived in a private school.

@TorkTorkBam - nice!!! You may well do things to benefit an equal society but you know nothing about me or my life so you don't need to hurl personal abuse thank you very much.

This has been an interesting debate but I don't need personal insults thanks all the same.

@LesLavandes - and I'm the one with a chip on my shoulder okay. Maybe I do maybe I don't, but any thread on here about Private schools is full of people banging on about all the sacrifices they make to send their children to a fee paying school without acknowledgement that they are fortunate to be in a position to make those "sacrifices" in the first place. Those of us who fundamentally disgrace with a two tier education system then get told we are jealous or have a chip on our shoulder. And thus it was ever so ...

Why do people who lean right wing always maintain that anyone who is left wing is middle to upper class?

They don't. Like many non-right-wingers, they are presumably just trying to point out the hypocrisy of champagne socialists. That doesn't mean they (or anybody else) thinks that those are the only kind of socialists, and I imagine a lot of real right-wingers would have plenty to say about working class rabid lefties too.

Tollergirl the problem is fairly and squarely schools there.

I know parents who have moved to private schools where they don't just write off dyslexics, as our local schools seemed to, but work through it with them. I thought of it for my own kid and regret not doing it as their writing and confidence is not what it could be. Any grandkids I now would offer to pay for a private primary with support for dyslexics as it seems strongly familial.

I do know plenty of privates ask kids to leave if they can't keep up! But the positives of allowing private schools is that it provides some diversity. Just a shame it's not available to all.

Tollergirl- you have no idea of my background or lifestyle. I guess your imagination is running wild

@LesLavandes - not at all. That comment was directed at @TorkTorkBam who said that they did "F* all more than me" to contribute to an equal society.

I have no clue about your background. I was just engaging in this discussion which to my mind was ideological in the most part.

Parents who send their children to independent schools that I know, have trusted the local state system and believed in it until issues have shown themselves and made it necessary to make a change in direction. Some work in state education, some work in both sectors - music for example. Most have friends who work in state education, and/or their children's friends are a mix of independent and state pupils.
A few things - there seems to be a dismissive attitude here to all independent school parents. We do not think ourselves removed from or superior to the rest of society. All work full time. The vast majority live very modestly and frugally to pay fees.
All feel a link and responsibility to society as a whole and are caring, productive people who contribute to their local communities with their time and expertise - school governers, volunteers - pta - to support local schools as best they can.

None are 'elite', or removed from the awareness of societal inequality. I know none who voted for this Govmnt. All want their kids to do their best and grow up to be productive members of society, to enrich society as a whole. That's what their schools teach them, awareness and involvement in their communities, outreach, respect for self and others, critical thinking and researching behind soundbites and pr. We all need people who are educated well.

You can say whatever you like about us, but you may well be quite wrong and prejudiced, and dismissive. We are not immoral for doing what we are able to support education of the next generation.

Less of the automatic hate and judgement would be nice. We most of us would prefer inequality reduced and fairness of opportunity increased across the board.

Our single state option was a school that is cutting back on the number of subjects/GCSEs students can do, and where studying three sciences Vs two can no longer be down to attainment and potential, but the numbers the fragile setup can accommodate.
Abolishing the private school system is the wrong focus, and mostly used as distraction clickbait.

Apologies- they said they bet they did a f* of a lot more than me.

Throughout this thread you insist that you want to raise standards across the board OP however the strategies that you suggest are nothing but a race to the bottom.

Would someone tell me exactly what “champagne socialist” means?

You could look it up?

I could. I’d rather someone who’s bandying it about told me what they mean by it.

Probably best not to dig too deep into other's comments, I find! :) A lot of phrases are a bit throw-away clichés.

@DoubleTweenQueen

Probably best not to dig too deep into other's comments, I find! :) A lot of phrases are a bit throw-away clichés.

If I’m going to be accused of being a champagne socialist I’d quite like to know what the accuser means, if that’s all right with you.

Why do people who lean right wing always maintain that anyone who is left wing is middle to upper class?

Do you have any evidence for this or is it just a massive strawman?