To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

I live in the The Netherlands and when I was looking for primary schools for DD I was smugly told that private schools weren’t a thing. They were right, they aren’t but inequality is still baked into the system and in my opinion is far more pervasive.

For some bizarre reason my level of education was repeatedly referenced during primary and I’m sure it would have benefited DD favourably, if she hadn’t been a smarty pants.

Report after report has shown that children from disadvantaged and minority backgrounds are repeatedly given lesser final assessments.

Didn't finish my point , being again, forget about private schools, the inequality is right there in state. Because so many children won't have for whatever reasons, parents like me, and they will think their child just isn't capable and trust the school!

Many dc won't be able to have special tutoring. It's them who schools and society is utterly failing.
Not the ones in the top sets or average learners, or those who get sent private.

The ones in the bottom like my dd.

@dwiz8 I strongly recommend you to read Spirit Level. It explains clearly that a more equal society actually benefits everyone. Maybe that 13 year old drug dealer might actually have other ambitions had he had better opportunities and a fairer chance in life.

@Swelteringmeltering do you mind if I ask you what worked for your DD as it could be something I could use in my class to help some children? Please feel free to say no or you could PM me.

I really feel for you. I have to say when I was a TA I saw some failings for SEN children and had no power to change it as the teacher believed there was no issue. I had to basically try and address it myself which was useless.

[quote Oblahdeeoblahdoe]@dwiz8 I strongly recommend you to read Spirit Level. It explains clearly that a more equal society actually benefits everyone. Maybe that 13 year old drug dealer might actually have other ambitions had he had better opportunities and a fairer chance in life.[/quote]
Exactly this, children in deprived areas don’t have the issues they do which stop them from learning just by chance. It’s so ingrained in a societal level.

[quote Oblahdeeoblahdoe]@dwiz8 I strongly recommend you to read Spirit Level. It explains clearly that a more equal society actually benefits everyone. Maybe that 13 year old drug dealer might actually have other ambitions had he had better opportunities and a fairer chance in life.[/quote]
His father was a drug dealer and he had a severely disabled sister who they cared for.

He was given a good education, and help and support and in the end it didn't matter

Sometimes the dice falls exactly the way it was always going to.

To get to an equal society would take decades, as a PP has said no one advocating to removing private schools has said how this will help state schools. The money parents pay won't go into state schools

@year5teacher

If rich people can pay for private education without being emotionally invested into their children’s education, then those children will have wasted their education. It’s their choice and they get the outcome they strive for. Which is my point. Your children (mostly but not in all cases) will get the outcome you strive for. Why does that grate on you and others so much that parental responsibility is a thing. Why blame everything else, all of the time.

[quote sst1234]@year5teacher

If rich people can pay for private education without being emotionally invested into their children’s education, then those children will have wasted their education. It’s their choice and they get the outcome they strive for. Which is my point. Your children (mostly but not in all cases) will get the outcome you strive for. Why does that grate on you and others so much that parental responsibility is a thing. Why blame everything else, all of the time.[/quote]
Well, they’d probably still get a decent education out of it regardless of their parents motivation for sending them.
If you think I have an issue with parental responsibility I’m not sure how you’ve interpreted that, to be honest. Parents have a responsibility and neglect isn’t acceptable in whatever class you’re in. But middle class neglect is definitely a thing.
I think you’re placing an unrealistic weight on aspiration and wanting to succeed. A child in a deprived area and their family can want them to succeed all they like but ultimately it still won’t be as easy for them as it would be for the child of a parent who sent them to private school as a status symbol.

@year5teacher you seem to totally disregard that a child's parents and their outlook has the biggest impact on the child's attainment

I went to the same school as the 13 year id drug dealers. Same teachers, same classes. But one of us had parents who made an effort, helped with homework, went to parent teacher evenings.

Removing private schools will not fix the biggest issue holding deprived children back.

And it was my 1st who was always sat by the naughty ones and had to put up with being sworn at etc, and having to try and partner with them.
It didn't benefit her or them. Or her friends who similarly were expected to shepard the way ward.

Yes, I was that child too. It was annoying and distracting. Looking back they were pairing HA with LA kids, which at the time I didn't realize, I just thought I'd been put on the naughty table for some reason- it made me think my teacher didn't like me and I had a poor relationship with her because of it. It disrupted my learning massively.

@dwiz8 and I think you disregard that with the best will in the world, there are not the same opportunities available to all children because of our unequal school system.

No. I think the standards in state provision should be improved and made more consistent across the board - remove the postcode lottery for the quality of teaching/facilities and breadth of curriculum - and there needs to be longer term stability and independence from politics. I think educators should be running the show, and I think they should be properly funded.
I would love to not need to pay two sets of fees.
I don’t see what the motivation would be for any Government to actually do it though. As long as a decent proportion are getting a good enough education to enable them to have a productive life and pay their taxes - the mantra is 'do more with less’, after all.

@Trashtara god, I would never pair HA and LA. Before I had to have them in rows I would just muddle every table up so there was a good mix, and I’d have chosen to change it a few times through the year.

It’ll be harder now with Covid restrictions on classroom layout and the impact that has on group work.

[quote year5teacher]@dwiz8 and I think you disregard that with the best will in the world, there are not the same opportunities available to all children because of our unequal school system.[/quote]
How will removing private schools help under privileged students?

A simple question for which you should have an answer considering that's what your post and view centers on

@dwiz8 In an earlier reply I stated how abolishing independent schools would help state schools and society generally.

I'll pm you op because, if I've not already outed myself that will definitely out me.

@dwiz8 part of it would be opening opportunities for children from state schools which are currently dominated by privately educated people.
Because state school children can receive the same grades as those in prestigious schools, that can’t just be what makes privately educated people disproportionately represented in lots of fields.
By taking that out, you open up more opportunities for children from state schools.

It would also stop etonians dominating politics and might just, in the long run, give us a government who actually had an interest in the education of most children.

You could also suggest that those who earn more and would have sent their kids to private school pay more tax towards education to increase funding but I somehow feel that won’t go down well here.

child's parents and their outlook has the biggest impact on the child's attainment

Definitely. As a youth worker and later children's social worker, the ones who did best are the ones with parents who valued education and felt it served a purpose.

Those parents who didn't value education were ones who had mainly had bad experiences as kids- considered stupid or naughty. Often where at school they were preoccupied by what awaited them at home. But they felt education had done them no good why would it be different for their kid?

Those parents who didn't value education were ones who had mainly had bad experiences as kids- considered stupid or naughty. Often where at school they were preoccupied by what awaited them at home. But they felt education had done them no good why would it be different for their kid?

Agreed. This is the thing, this won’t happen at private school or hardly as much. This is why it’s not right that this kind of experience gets repeated throughout generations of often low income families, and then their children don’t get the same opportunities. It just shuts the door for so many children before they’ve even had a chance to open it.

Lots of kids do have that chance though - through going to a good school with good teaching. I did just that. You are being too generalising and too simplistic.

@year5teacher

Those parents who didn't value education were ones who had mainly had bad experiences as kids- considered stupid or naughty. Often where at school they were preoccupied by what awaited them at home. But they felt education had done them no good why would it be different for their kid?

Agreed. This is the thing, this won’t happen at private school or hardly as much. This is why it’s not right that this kind of experience gets repeated throughout generations of often low income families, and then their children don’t get the same opportunities. It just shuts the door for so many children before they’ve even had a chance to open it.

But shutting private schools won't stop this happening

OP you sound like a fantastic teacher and the state is lucky to have you.
YANBU.
I find it truly astonishing that so many on here cannot see that one, state-run education system, where places are allocated on a lottery basis to avoid rich families buying into areas that are served by the best schools, is a workable means to mitigating social inequality - the type of inequality that I thought COVID had brought to the forefront of public awareness as a huge injustice that is in need of repairing. Obviously not.

I hate the argument 'I worked hard so should be able to spend my money on the best education for my kids'. Yeah, so does the single mother who works three jobs just to put food on the table, but she doesn't have that option...
I hate the argument 'well life is unfair, so suck it up'. Well, imagine if everyone throughout history took THAT attitude, we wouldn't have evolved at all!
I hate the argument 'the answer is to make state schools better'. But don't you see, even if that happened, you would still have the children of Boris, Queenie and the rest of the upper classes frequenting the elite public schools, separating their offspring from the masses thereby maintaining the 'us and them', 'born to rule' mentality. What Boris et al really need is a good dose of mixing with the common people so that they can learn what life is really like, which will give us better politicians.
I hate the argument 'but the rich will just buy in tutors'. OK, they probably will. But at least bright little Lee has a chance to sit in the same class as equally bright Borris, to be exposed to the same environment and the same material. He may even be pulled along by him. May even make friends! And then Boris would perhaps see how the other half live, which would actually probably be beneficial to Boris too.
This is not about taking away what is good. This is about benefitting the whole of society.

[quote year5teacher]@dwiz8 part of it would be opening opportunities for children from state schools which are currently dominated by privately educated people.
Because state school children can receive the same grades as those in prestigious schools, that can’t just be what makes privately educated people disproportionately represented in lots of fields.
By taking that out, you open up more opportunities for children from state schools.

It would also stop etonians dominating politics and might just, in the long run, give us a government who actually had an interest in the education of most children.

You could also suggest that those who earn more and would have sent their kids to private school pay more tax towards education to increase funding but I somehow feel that won’t go down well here.[/quote]
What opportunities do state school children not have because private schools exist?

@dwiz8 I replied to you regarding how it would help inequality in state schools.

I’m not saying “abolish private schools and immediately everything will be great for every child in the country”, it’s about creating a more equal society over the years with a wider range of people accessing different roles in society and the government.

[quote year5teacher]@dwiz8 I replied to you regarding how it would help inequality in state schools.

I’m not saying “abolish private schools and immediately everything will be great for every child in the country”, it’s about creating a more equal society over the years with a wider range of people accessing different roles in society and the government.[/quote]
No you didn't

By having private schools what opportunities do state students not have

Baring in mind the money parents pay for private schools won't be redistributed to state schools. And magically the facilities in the private schools won't be handed over to state schools.