To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

@dwiz8 sorry, I’ve got a banging headache so I’m just going to leave a link www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/britains-most-powerful-people-more-likely-to-have-attended-private-school

School places by lottery!! Doesn’t sound like progression to me.

@sevencontinents to be clear, is it just education that we shouldn’t be able to buy for our children, or in your ideal world would you control other ways that we can spend our money?

Op I've heard from teachers with the actual teachers degree that education is now mostly full of teachers with pgce

Certainly more beneficial for secondary education?

[quote RedtreesRedtrees]@sevencontinents to be clear, is it just education that we shouldn’t be able to buy for our children, or in your ideal world would you control other ways that we can spend our money?[/quote]
Education and health. These are two fundamental human rights that should never be purchased. I am not a communists. I accept a capitalist society. But I think basic human rights transcend capitalism.

Nice to have an ideology, but most of us have to deal with reality and our personal life choices.

I wouldn’t ban them but if you look at the Nordic countries they have a very highly regarded public/state schooling system, which has essentially made private education redundant in those countries. But - the caveat - people generally pay a higher rate of tax than we do in the UK.
Would the UK population accept a hike in tax for vastly improved state services, including education and healthcare? And, more to the point, would our government actually deliver improved public services if we paid more in tax to them... that’s probably the biggest problem!!

@DoubleTweenQueen

Nice to have an ideology, but most of us have to deal with reality and our personal life choices.

What does this even mean?

@DoubleTweenQueen

School places by lottery!! Doesn’t sound like progression to me.

To be clear, I am referring to systems whereby parents can nominate preferred schools but there are ways of ensuring that those who live the closest don't automatically get the places (ie those who have been able to purchase the houses there) and ensuring that catchments are socio-economically diverse. Some state schools are already using such systems. That is far more progressive than private schooling by stealth, surely! How could it possibly not be?!

[quote year5teacher]@dwiz8 sorry, I’ve got a banging headache so I’m just going to leave a link www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/britains-most-powerful-people-more-likely-to-have-attended-private-school[/quote]
Ah so you mean after school opportunities.

Removing private schools won't make the children currently not doing well in school do any better. It might level the playing field slightly with those higher achieving state school students but won't help the lower end

@laidbacklife good points re: tax hike, I hate to be one of those people who doesn’t have faith in the people of their country but honestly, no I don’t think people would accept this because I think a lot of people are focused on themselves and not the needs of society as a whole.

@sevencontinents really good point!

@yr5teacher Most of those professions with a high percentage have had a 10-20yr career lead-up to get to senior level, and so likely to reflect an historic system of favouring certain networks/course/university/college, which in turn made it more likely they went to a private school/certain private school.
I wonder what the percentage of men vs women is in each of those? And of ethnic origin?
And are they the right person for the role? Do they do a good job?

@dwiz8 and those after school opportunities then create higher aspirations within the family and more likely better outcomes for their children

It makes a dent in the cycle of low aspirations and low faith in education. Why try if the job you really want to do is way more likely to go to a privately educated kid? And when you know that the government doesn’t have your best interests in heart, and you feel they don’t understand you?

I said that it’s not going to immediately make every child in school do well but over time it could be part of a long term solution to greater equality of opportunity, which, as I said, breaks the cycle of disadvantage and under achieving.

Certainly won’t solve everything. But it would benefit things.

@DoubleTweenQueen I think I saw in the article that men are overrepresented - I’m sure that they are, and I also expect it’s dominated by white people. Different levels of privilege.

I’ll have a look though.

[quote year5teacher]@dwiz8 and those after school opportunities then create higher aspirations within the family and more likely better outcomes for their children

It makes a dent in the cycle of low aspirations and low faith in education. Why try if the job you really want to do is way more likely to go to a privately educated kid? And when you know that the government doesn’t have your best interests in heart, and you feel they don’t understand you?

I said that it’s not going to immediately make every child in school do well but over time it could be part of a long term solution to greater equality of opportunity, which, as I said, breaks the cycle of disadvantage and under achieving.

Certainly won’t solve everything. But it would benefit things.[/quote]
You honestly think there are children who are able to achieve more and who's parents are supportive who don't try because they think a privately educated child will get all the jobs they want?

I doubt that tbh

“ I think a lot of people are focused on themselves and not the needs of society as a whole.”

I’m focused on the needs of my family above all else. I recognise education as a public good and I’d pay more tax to improve the state sector if the government required. But so long as I’ve paid my taxes it’s my right to educate my children as I see fit.

@dwiz8 I strongly recommend you to read Spirit Level. It explains clearly that a more equal society actually benefits everyone. Maybe that 13 year old drug dealer might actually have other ambitions had he had better opportunities and a fairer chance in life.

Might also have helped if the '13 year old drug dealer's' parents knew/cared what he was up to.

We expect teachers to be social workers now. Obviously there is a cross over, but they're there, primarily, to teach. An inspirational teacher can do great things and turn lives around but they are not the parents of the children they teach.

From my FB feed, I can see what has become of my peers who were the children of feckless parents - the ones who let them run riot and basically taught them that school is a load of shit and to be rude to teachers. Those children picked on people who wanted to learn and their parents were abusive and/or dismissive of teachers trying to instil any disciplibe. Guess what? Their prospects are low and they're now moulding children (mostly young adults) in their own image, so we're onto a third (at least) generation of low prospects through nothing but inverted snobbery.

The problem with some forms of socialism, is that it wants everyone to be dragged down to the lowest level, rather than dragging the standard up.

@dwiz8 I think that is precisely what can happen, but in a more sub-conscious way. Our classiest society is deeply ingrained in us. A privately educated person from a top school is taught that they are born to rule, and they have the connections for top jobs. Someone from the local comp has neither. It is easy to see how sub-consciously, they may be dissuaded from applying. And that's without mentioning the subtle prejudices of employers...

@dwiz8 I’ve given a perfectly good explanation of how abolishing private schools will contribute towards creating more opportunities for more children over time and how that will help, in turn, their children.

I’ve never claimed it to be the only thing that needs to happen.

First you’re like “how will it help?” and then I answer, and you’re like “that won’t help right now!!” So I suspect anything I say you’ll find reason to disagree with, which is your prerogative.

State primary schools would have to step up their wrap around care. Around here it's awful. People send their kids to private school just for the wrap around care as it's so much better.

@yr5teacher It means that most parents I know, in real life, including myself, would rather be able to send our children to a local state school, with local friends and an easier commute, and no fees.

We would prefer that state provision available to us was not just ‘adequate’. There is growing pressure year on year, in our part of the country, on the independent sector. Most schools are full and oversubscribed - from early years. The state sector is buckling under decades of underfunding and low prioritisation.

@RedtreesRedtrees

“ I think a lot of people are focused on themselves and not the needs of society as a whole.”

I’m focused on the needs of my family above all else. I recognise education as a public good and I’d pay more tax to improve the state sector if the government required. But so long as I’ve paid my taxes it’s my right to educate my children as I see fit.

Do you not think it unfair that others, who also pay taxes, who work hard, often in caring jobs that benefit society, don't have that choice? Why youore than them, exactly?

The state sector is buckling under decades of underfunding and low prioritisation.

This is really true.

I agree with you OP.
It’s not comparable to big houses or music lessons which don’t affect your future ability to be economically and politically successful.
Not even comparable to healthcare, where for a child going public means a longer wait but you’ll get there in the end (admittedly not the case for the elderly).
There’s an enormous disparity between private and state schools (in the UK much more so than many countries I’ve lived in). In these places where the vast majority of children spend 14 years of their lives, the least privileged have no access whatsoever to the day-to-day lives, opinions, attitudes, culture etc etc of the most privileged - and vice versa. That leaves them with nothing in common, no insight into each other’s lives. Resulting in a poorer sense of community all round. Which hurts everyone, even the most privileged.

@Trashtara

State primary schools would have to step up their wrap around care. Around here it's awful. People send their kids to private school just for the wrap around care as it's so much better.

Interesting point, I don’t think anyone has mentioned that yet.