To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

@year5teacher, do you not accept that the gap between independent schools and high achieving comps in affluent areas is far smaller than the gap between high achieving comps in affluent areas and comps in deprived areas?

When it comes to group discussion it benefits LA children to be exposed to what you might suggest would be a higher level of thinking/understanding from a classmate

That’s quite a claim. Maybe in small doses but it would be frustrating for them on a day to day level.

it can also benefit HA children to explain concept to LA kids

I disagree. It places a unnecessary burden on the HA student and puts the LA student in a subordinate position (not a good place for them to be). As someone who was in school when this was particularly in vogue, it was tiresome to have to do the teacher’s job (and half the time they still didn’t get it anyway. Was it my fault because I didn’t explain it clearly or their fault because it was a bit beyond them?)

Really the most important thing is having a growth mindset culture in the classroom where everyone believes that they can achieve what is best for them, and that if they’re finding something hard it’s just because they don’t understand it yet

Not incompatible with sorting by ability

I personally don’t feel it aligns with my values

You don’t seem to like any inequality, even if it’s a natural one ....

@MangoFeverDream I said it wasn’t the view or all teachers, I’m afraid ability grouping isn’t something I’ll be doing in my classroom. I found it really damaging to my own idea of myself as a learner at school and I’ve seen it do the same to other children whilst I was a TA and when I was on placement.

Mango, totally agree. And it was my 1st who was always sat by the naughty ones and had to put up with being sworn at etc, and having to try and partner with them.
It didn't benefit her or them. Or her friends who similarly were expected to shepard the way ward.

However when it came to telling off the naughty ones, the whole class were done for they all got punished.

Someone mentioned that faith schools were set up by benefactors not taxes. The same is right for many if not most private schools, set up by donors, often for children who otherwise wouldn't have had an education.

[quote NellyJames]@year5teacher, do you not accept that the gap between independent schools and high achieving comps in affluent areas is far smaller than the gap between high achieving comps in affluent areas and comps in deprived areas?[/quote]
But the gap between private schools and schools in deprived areas is even greater.

There’s always going to be some disparity because it’s unrealistic to expect everything at the same level, but private schooling definitely doesn’t help things!

@Swelteringmeltering

Mango, totally agree. And it was my 1st who was always sat by the naughty ones and had to put up with being sworn at etc, and having to try and partner with them. It didn't benefit her or them. Or her friends who similarly were expected to shepard the way ward.

However when it came to telling off the naughty ones, the whole class were done for they all got punished.

To be honest, that just sounds like poor teaching.

If you have children who are like that in your class then someone has to sit by them, unfortunately, but any good teacher would change things if they saw a dynamic that was actively disadvantaging a pupil. Let alone whole class punishment.

I just mix all mine up, they get to chat to HA kids and all the rest.

I disagree. It places a unnecessary burden on the HA student and puts the LA student in a subordinate position (not a good place for them to be). As someone who was in school when this was particularly in vogue, it was tiresome to have to do the teacher’s job (and half the time they still didn’t get it anyway. Was it my fault because I didn’t explain it clearly or their fault because it was a bit beyond them?)
I was in this position as a student and now as a teacher I very rarely have able students doing explaining.

There's some merit in having peer to peer support, but it has to be done well and can't become a lazy differentiation strategy.

For example, I sometimes do revision groups where students have to plan a short revision activity/presentation/resource for the class. In each group I choose a wide range of students, which would include a high performing student in that topic and students who found that area difficult. The group then shares with the class. Everyone in the class benefits from everyone's input.

Whereas sitting a lower attaining student next to a high attaining student and hoping they become excellent at literature is, to me, a classic example of lazy planning in my subject.

@year5teacher so if private schools are banned will you also ban your colleagues from tutoring children? I cant imagine that being popular with teachers or parents who pay them to tutor. If you don't ban tutoring then there will still be a lot of disparity.

Grouping by ability is tricky.
I've seen one dd frustrated and held back and quite frankly used as un paid help to the naughty ones (usually dis engaged) but at the very other end, it started to impact my other dd self esteem to be taken away from other learners to attend special groups.

She's starting to become aware of her status in the class. However, whilst as I said earlier her special groups in school actually have not benefited her at all, at that stage, there was no way she could keep up in the class.

So sitting there had no benefit to her.
I'm hoping after all the hard work she and I have done over lock down, she will fair better next school year. But there is no point her being in English, with pupils who understand the inference in Shakespeare and can write long, interesting stories, when she's just got reading and can only write a few lines. But, as everyone keeps telling me (outside school) she's very bright.
Some of the dc she has been put with in these special groups however, have far greater sen and needs than her, to to he point of understanding basic conversation.

Much simpler to have had tweaks in teacher training to try simple different methods to unlock children's learning styles. Had we had our simple tweak 3 years ago, my dd wouldn't have been where she was.

There's some merit in having peer to peer support, but it has to be done well and can't become a lazy differentiation strategy.

Definitely. The way I use it is often as a plenary eg explain what you just learned to the person next to you, I have a load of plenary cards which they can access when they’re finished with their work. I find it helps all kids primarily to explain what they have learned in the own words, and it can also be good for their partner to hear it explained in a slightly different way.

I would never just hope that the HA kid would recap what I’d just said because that’s a waste of their time. I think it can be helpful if used in the right way.

Absolutely. The highest achieving educational systems in the world have very limited private school provision.

Too many people on this thread can't see beyond the bubble of the UK with its class obsession. A genuine meritocracy would serve the country much better.

also how will you police teachers who are tutoring? Most don't advertise, they just do it for an hourly fee, word of mouth which ones offer it...

We live in a fully comprehensive school area. There used to be a boys' and girls' grammar. Both now state comprehensives. Both absolutely awful now. When I was growing up here, parents moved when their kids reached secondary age

We have a super posh boarding school and a private day school that offers a huge number of bursary places, prioritizes widening access. They have abolished funding for scholarships as they go to tutored prep children, and put the money into bursaries instead for children of all backgrounds.

My kids go to this school. My husband is an academic and I am an NHS doctor. I would leave work and home Ed before sending my kids to our local comp where significantly less than half get 5 GCSEs at above a 5, or a to c grades.

Our local Labour MP is very much in favour of Corbyn's stated policy of abolishing private education. I have waited several very long years for Keir Starmer to become leader of the party. I have so much respect for him; of he gets the chance I consider he has the potential to be a PM for the history books.

But if Labour hold this policy they will not get my vote. Where I live, the other options are not options for my kids.

Improve state education. Put private schools out of business by funding a world class state system. Accept - - as Germany and Italy do - - that there are kids who are best served by vocational learning - - make it easy for them to move into academic streams if they show willing and potential, so no one is in the wrong place. Stretch the academic streams in secondary. Stretch them all in primary. Give them the opportunity to learn Shakespeare in year 6. To try different languages on rotation before deciding.

Have enough teachers and TAs per child, who have time and are genuinely interested, so that they can build a rapport with the turned off and turned away. It can be done, it just takes interest, time and money.

A read of Malcolm Gladwell's old New Yorker essay comparing spotting a great quarterback and a great teacher is a fascinating place to start.

@Fruitsaladjelly
That’s why bursaries are means tested if you only need a 10% top up that’s what you get, equally if you can only scrape together a few hundred a term they’ll bridge the gap.

Then a equation I would ask is, on average, what percentage of pupils in a fee paying school is on a full bursary?

I've just looked and this article from 2017 says it is just over 1%. A tiny figure, and not indicative that a lot of pupils from the poorest backgrounds are accessing these schools.

schoolsweek.co.uk/private-schools-take-1-of-pupils-from-most-disadvantaged-backgrounds/

@year5teacher, can I also ask a question about your belief that streaming is wrong? You teach primary. My experience with 3 children of very different abilities is this: My very able, academic DS1 coasted all through primary. Virtually all lessons were pitched to the middle/average then his group would have a little extra and those below average would have something watered down. My question is why is the 20-30minutes input never pitched at a very high level then the independent bit can be scaffolded or whatever or he reached sit with the 24 for whom it was pitched too high and recapped pitching at a lower level? I’m not saying all lessons should be pitched this way but why not some? You talk about equality but do you genuinely feel there’s equality of input for the very able?
Conversely, my DC2 is very average academically. (Nothing wrong with that ) He’s lucky that he’s super sporty so gets his ‘worth’ in school terms through that. However, his class is somewhat challenging so when the teacher has dealt with behaviour issues, supported those. Who struggle, tried to ensure her HAs have an extension sheet then there’s very little time for the very quiet, well behaved average child.
DD is also academically able but bolshy and sporty with it. I’m not worried about her at all.
I feel that both my boys for different reasons would benefit massively from early streaming. It doesn’t need to go hand in hand with low expectations at all.

Obviously I’ve been through teacher training but frankly I agree with this Much simpler to have had tweaks in teacher training to try simple different methods to unlock children's learning styles.

I’ll be honest, I don’t feel my pgce was that great. I had quite a few years experience as a TA beforehand which helped me, but my mentor at my first placement was totally hands-off and at the second placement I frequently had my plans changed last minute or had to rush and reprint 30 worksheets that had already been checked, because I hadn’t used the right font. At that school I never had the chance to plan from scratch. (Luckily it was only a 6 week placement!) I passed with outstanding, but frankly so did loads of teachers on my course and my opinion is that outstanding at pgce means you are outstanding at gathering evidence for the teachers standards.

I don’t feel at all I observed enough high quality differentiation or really got a chance to go in-depth about these kinds of things. I gained more experience in these areas in my years as a TA but not many of my peers had done that.

Joan 12, great post.

Best argument, put private schools out of business by creating amazing state schools agree.

Same with grammars. Want to get rid of them, then make sure comps can properly educate the top sets.

I hate this ban grammar and ban private argument. It doesn't solve anything.
It's like trying to force us out of cars, into crowded, badly run trains.
It's arse above elbow. Make trains and public transport amazing, cheap and comfortable to use and of course people will start to use it.

Not one person m, advocating abolition of private education, has answered the simple questions head on. How would abolishing private schools help with the poor attitude of parents of worst performing children. Parents who would rather blame the school for their children’s poor behaviour than their own dysfunctional lives, parents who take little interest in spurring their children to achieve, parents who take no active interest on the content of their children’s education. And no, an income gap between between rich and poor does not absolve parents of their responsibility to do these things.
Sending your children to private school must go hand in hand with being emotionally invested in your child’s academic achievements (if I am wrong, parents who pay for private education will correct me on this, no doubt). No amount of money can replace parental responsibility, not even in a socialist utopia. But of course spending other people’s money to absolve people of responsibility is the lazy socialist way.

I think the important point is differentiation is easier if you have ability groups but it’s not always better, and I think it can create a mental “cap” on how children view their potential.

Really interesting hearing parents’ views, so thank you for sharing. I don’t always love children being taken out of class for interventions because it can be embarrassing for them but sometimes it has to happen and they really benefit from it. I try to frame it in a very positive way.

Interestingly I noticed recently that teachers are moving away from giving their TA the LA group, which I think is good as really those children are the ones that need more input from the teacher rather than always sitting with the TA.

Off topic but interesting!

I’d love to see the result if you were to offer parents who pay to educate their kids privately a simple choice:

A) pay less than you do at the moment and as a result all children get the same marvellous opportunities yours are currently getting; or
B) pay a bit more than you do at the moment to maintain the status quo?

I think most would opt to for B (as long as their choice was secret).

The disparity between private education and state is the entire point, it’s the raison d’etre. It is to give their child an advantage over the masses so they do better than those others in the cut throat competition of life, regardless of their child’s own natural ability. A fundamental, deep rooted belief that the world can’t have winners without losers, so rather than focus on making everyone a winner you just make damn sure that it is someone else’s kid who loses, no matter how undeserving yours might be in comparison!

It works similarly with earnings. Given a choice people would generally be happier to take a notional £5,000 pay cut as long as everyone else also got £5,000 pay cut, than receive a £5,000 increase in the knowledge that everyone else was getting £7,000. What we receive in absolute terms is less important than how we are doing compared with others.

Rationally and ethically we should at least be able to admit that this is pretty shit, rather than tie ourselves in knots making excuses for it or pretending it isn’t true.

First of all where would all the additional places come from for all the private school children if private schools were abolished?

Personally, I have no issue with private schools. But state education should be equal across the board and it's not. There are some fantastic state schools and some not so good. That's what should get sorted. Parental income (or assumed Income) is very much a factor in state schools too. Schools, certainly in my area, get more funding if in a deprived area than schools who are not. There are strong arguments as to why that should be the case, but often if a schools catchment is mixed between deprived area and a more affluent area then the additional funding benefits all pupils in the school.

I know people who have deliberately put their children to schools with a mixed catchment, in order to benefit from the additional money used for trips etc.

I certainly don't disagree that state schooling needs sorted and more funding. But closing private schools isn't the way to achieve that,

@sst1234 I’m going to ignore the judgemental tone of your comment.

As I said in response to other posters (maybe you, god knows at this point), what you’re describing is a cycle that goes throughout families that is based on low faith in the education system, placing a low value on education because they had a bad experience at school or had poor opportunities upon leaving, a culture in which no one in the family went on to study past GCSE, etc. A lot of this can be linked to failings within the state school system, and an ingrained mentality that higher education is something for “other people”.
Whilst abolishing private schools isn’t going to directly solve this, redistributing the wealth into funding for state schools or at the very least having a government which bothered more about standards in state schools would help. The reason why the govt doesn’t care is because they mostly went to private schools and so do all their kids. The tories don’t famously care about the poor.

I would also take issue with the idea that paying for your child’s education means you’re emotionally invested. Lots of people pay for it because it’s a status thing, because they would never conceive of letting their kids mingle with the riff raff, because they feel they can throw their weight around more if they’re paying, because they want to send their kid to boarding school and only see them in the holidays. The majority of parents are not like this, of course. But I think you’re veering into “rich people care more about their kids than poor people do” territory.

Op I've heard from teachers with the actual teachers degree that education is now mostly full of teachers with pgce.

But if I was a school head, I would invite in people who know this stuff. There are many people who do consultations on various strageties and things to look out for.

Surely, like our head, they would want to help dc at the bottom of the class?
Bright children who do not reach their potential and have their self esteem damaged can go onto to cause society a lot of issues.

I'm in the process of formulating a letter to my MP about this issue. I've found myself in an Orwellian black hole at this school, littered with bizzare socialist ramblings.

The SENCO is literally a Co ordinator and has not even seen or observed or knows anything about my dd. The teachers are defensive and reluctant to tell dp what their dc is actually struggling with. They don't believe in dyslexia.

I'm writing to the mp about my experience and how literally without an outsiders kind help my dd could be still locked out of learning when, with only a teeny tweak she's actually capable of top marks.

And not one teacher has mentioned anything to me in 3 or 4 years.
How can the school therefore, recommend her to be seen by an Ed psych, if they can't in any way gage she might have an issue.
So if she does have an sen, who on earth is supposed to spot it in an learning environment if not one teacher, ta or SENCO are trained to spot anything and the head isn't interested?

How is she supposed to get the help she may need? What if she needed an EHCP?
It's a bizzare situation.

I've got some very scant knowledge, only picked up since all this blew up for us, last October. However my very scant knowledge would go a very long way in my dd school!! It would unlock many other struggling dc, and help them to learn and get the help they need.

Even when, back in October, and my dd grades went up, I was trying to explain this simple thing to the teacher, she wasn't interested at all.

You would think for their own marks, they would like to know how a child 3 years at the bottom started to climb out?