To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

Life isn't fair is a valuable argument though.
State education is the most unfair sector. People moving for better schools, for one.
Some have smaller classes, because under subscribed. Some over subscribed because have an excellent SEN dept, so not all gain a place.
Better teachers at some schools.
It's government initiatives to bring the failing schools to standard is what is required.
At my ds1 sink estate going back 12 years now, they had that super head and Beacon School thing. Well, the head was amazing and really changed the place, money was poured into making the school a place to learn, kids weren't scared anymore and there were real incentives for hard work. When he gained 2 levels in Science in one year he won an award.
Not just a trophy or keepsake but a flippin state of the art laptop. We couldn't afford to buy it.
This needs to be consistent not just a flash in the pan attempt, it really did work for several schools round here.

Worth mentioning that the private school sector collectively probably had a big sigh a relief last December following the election result, yet just a few months later a lot of independent schools are now facing the biggest threat to their financial viability, and there have been predictions that many will close, just not for the reasons mentioned in the OP.

A lot of fee-paying schools were already under financial strain even before covid, but now add in the reduction in fees they've been able to charge last term (and potentially in future terms if there's a second wave/lockdown), the biggest recession for a century and major job losses meaning fewer people can afford to send their children to such schools, potential loss of lucrative international students due to potential future travel restrictions, Brexit and increasing political tensions with China, and a massive hike in contributions to the Teacher Pension Scheme.

The thread below discuss a lot of this. While the sector will continue... it's only a matter of time before more private schools go bust.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/3868573-Long-term-effect-of-coronavirus-crisis-on-private-school-sector

[quote suk44]Worth mentioning that the private school sector collectively probably had a big sigh a relief last December following the election result, yet just a few months later a lot of independent schools are now facing the biggest threat to their financial viability, and there have been predictions that many will close, just not for the reasons mentioned in the OP.

A lot of fee-paying schools were already under financial strain even before covid, but now add in the reduction in fees they've been able to charge last term (and potentially in future terms if there's a second wave/lockdown), the biggest recession for a century and major job losses meaning fewer people can afford to send their children to such schools, potential loss of lucrative international students due to potential future travel restrictions, Brexit and increasing political tensions with China, and a massive hike in contributions to the Teacher Pension Scheme.

The thread below discuss a lot of this. While the sector will continue... it's only a matter of time before more private schools go bust.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/3868573-Long-term-effect-of-coronavirus-crisis-on-private-school-sector[/quote]
I don’t disagree with above as pressures. But I also see many posts talking about people trying to move to private sector due to heightened gap between state and private sector atm with online v very little in some cases.

I’d be interested to know overall effect.

My twisted values of children having equality of opportunity?

Yawn. Typical woke move. Did I say that? No I didn't did I. Borrowing the war cry of the woke left, why not go and educate yourself on the topic. Because a level playing field simply is not possible, for the many many reasons people have pointed out to you right on this thread. Why not try reading it. Although tbf, your values probably aren't twisted, at least not intentionally, despite your earnest leaning towards Marxism. Simply the naivety of youth.

sorry double post

Life isn't fair is a valuable argument though

In what context? It's certainly good for shutting down discussions on how life might one day be made a little less unfair, but I don't really see what else it changes.

Why campaign for anything if life is unfair anyway?

This question pops up regularly on MN. It never ends well.

It is unfair that kids whose parents can afford private education have an advanatge over others, but abolishing private schooling would do nothing to help disadvantaged kids - a race to the botttom benefits nobody. YANBU to dislike the unfairness, but YABU to think banning private schools would help anyone. Wealthy parents would probably send their kids to boarding schools abroad, or home school with private tutors.

Life isn't fair is a valuable argument though

It’s still worth considering how unfair. Some countries more egalitarian, others vast inequality. It’s worth thinking about where to sit and aiming for correction.

@MangoFeverDream

I feel that ability grouping basically limits children, teachers all know that kids know if they’re in the top/bottom table even if you try to hide it

Why is this a problem?

You shouldn’t hold high achieving children back, and it is counterproductive to have slower children try to work to the average. Both the top and bottom quartile of children are hurt by this attitude.

I would urge you to do some research on it, my view is definitely not the view of all teachers though.

I’m just tired and hungry and probably won’t explain it very well!

Ultimately, what I have seen in practice is it doesn’t hold HA kids back. In year 5 for example, they all do the same task (with differentiation eg I have a lot of dyslexia in my class so some will use laptops or have different aids). In that sense it doesn’t really matter if they’re sat with a LA or HA peer.
When it comes to group discussion it benefits LA children to be exposed to what you might suggest would be a higher level of thinking/understanding from a classmate. If you only interact with children at your level then you miss out on opportunities to expand your vocab etc, it can also benefit HA children to explain concept to LA kids.

Really the most important thing is having a growth mindset culture in the classroom where everyone believes that they can achieve what is best for them, and that if they’re finding something hard it’s just because they don’t understand it yet, etc.

I would argue with that culture fully embedded you could probably still have a good outcome with ability groupings but I personally don’t feel it aligns with my values.

Sorry please feel free to ignore all that which was probably just babble 😂

I don't think we should abolish them (I went to one as did my 5 children and their cousins) and those were active choices made by parents. if we abolished them you sould have to abolish state grammar schools too and bus children from posh comps to sink comps and then presumably make sure all children had the same home life so no good foods or bed time stories if some other parents were neglectful etc. You would also have to abolish our right to educate our children abroad and also in their own home (our Queen never went to school and was educated at home),

I don’t disagree with above as pressures. But I also see many posts talking about people trying to move to private sector due to heightened gap between state and private sector atm with online v very little in some cases.

I think there will be some people who do so, but I don't think it'll be anywhere near close to what will be needed to save some schools and mitigate the losses from those leaving or not joining. It's only my guess but I suspect the private schools more likely to benefit from this will be the bigger schools that were more financially stable anyway, rather than the smaller ones that are much more vulnerable.

The private tutor industry would explode

Would you ban that too OP?

Banning private schools is just virtue signalling. The biggest impact to children’s achievement comes from the focus their parents apply to their education. If banning private schools will make uninterested parents take more care of their children’s education, then you are living in la la land.
Improvement is achieved by pulling those at the bottom upwards, not pulling those at the top downwards. If the bottom 5% children are struggling in state schools because of the schools themselves then I guess it must be teachers like yourself who are doing a bad job, OP. But we know, in reality, teachers can not replace the role of a parent. The biggest push, interest in education, nurturing an interest in achievement comes from within the home. Cue the hysterics about how this is somehow blaming the parents.

Not read the whole thread

I would stop private schools being able to claim gift aid (this is state funding by the back door)

I would tax fees per pupil over the state per head funding, so fees over 5400 per annum or whatever the current figure is should be subject to VAT and should be income for corporation tax.

@year5teacher your explanation offers nothing as to why it benefits HA children to be put with LA children

Yes it's beneficial to the lower end but it does nothing to help and in many cases will hinder the HA children

Yes to VAT on fees.

@KarenFitzkaren

My twisted values of children having equality of opportunity?

Yawn. Typical woke move. Did I say that? No I didn't did I. Borrowing the war cry of the woke left, why not go and educate yourself on the topic. Because a level playing field simply is not possible, for the many many reasons people have pointed out to you right on this thread. Why not try reading it. Although tbf, your values probably aren't twisted, at least not intentionally, despite your earnest leaning towards Marxism. Simply the naivety of youth.

Alright, chill out. You’ve already called me a dickhead, not sure why you think continuing to be super patronising makes you look good. You’ve been far ruder than me than I was to you. Is that the wisdom of age?

I’ve listened to and responded to lots of comments on this thread which don’t necessarily agree with me, it’s been really interesting and I think PPs have offered a much broader perspective than I initially considered.

[quote dwiz8]@year5teacher your explanation offers nothing as to why it benefits HA children to be put with LA children

Yes it's beneficial to the lower end but it does nothing to help and in many cases will hinder the HA children

[/quote]
Mixed ability means they’re mixed so HA kids sit with some HA, some MA, some LA. They have some HA peers but they don’t need to be solely surrounded by them to benefit.

Indie schools keep up standards for state, that otherwise would slip even further. If they didn't exist there would be nothing to compare the state system with since people are to xenophobic to look at other countries' systems except Finland, for some reason.
Look at what happened with Covid.
Unions screeched that no online learning should happen, and many state school buckled. Indies were determined to keep going and raised the expectation, and so the better state schools followed suit. Otherwise they would have just given up and followed the unions diktat.

teachers like yourself who are doing a bad job, OP

In the nicest way possible, if you’re not a child in my class, a parent of a child in my class, or the headteacher, or an ofsted inspector, I don’t really care what you think of my teaching. You’ve also.. never seen me teach.

This kind of comment makes you look bad.

The biggest push, interest in education, nurturing an interest in achievement comes from within the home. Cue the hysterics about how this is somehow blaming the parents.

Absolutely this. And yet family's aren't equal either. Income, single parents, widowed parents, childcare, having to work full time, not having the luxury of being a stay at home parent to be there to support the kids, poverty, lack of education for parents, disengaged parents, these things aren't equal either. How does one legislate for that. Some of it you can. Most of it you can't.

Two of DH's friends went to private school - neither of them very successful and one struggles to hold a job. His grammar school friend got a first at Cambridge and is very successful career-wise. I don't think private school = aptitude/intelligence/success. I think that those can be achieved from any walk of life and the opportunity to excel academically is not exclusive to the wealthy.

I think that there might be ways to make state education more desirable, and then people would see private education more negatively (as happens in some parts of Europe).

The biggest push, interest in education, nurturing an interest in achievement comes from within the home.

I do agree with this though, and I think we really need to do a better job of supporting parents with this also.

@year5teacher

teachers like yourself who are doing a bad job, OP

In the nicest way possible, if you’re not a child in my class, a parent of a child in my class, or the headteacher, or an ofsted inspector, I don’t really care what you think of my teaching. You’ve also.. never seen me teach.

This kind of comment makes you look bad.

Did you read the following sentence to this rhetorical question? Clearly not. Because that would cause not make your argument look very good. So here goes....We know that teachers are not doing bad job because parenting is the biggest influence on a child’s attainment.