To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

Everything affects a child's trajectories, school is just one. What else do you want to ban: pushy parents, after school classes, single child families, where do you start and stop with this plan to equalise?

I agree with you op! I'm a teacher in an extremely deprived area and I hate the way that the kids are written off almost straight away!

I am so passionate about my school now I can't imagine leaving! Been there 10 years now and can't imagine teaching in a school in a naice area!

I suppose we REALLY make a difference and that's a good thing!

But I hate private school with a passion and would never send my own kids even if I could afford it! Also would never teach in one!

My local private school is now a state school and one of my pupils went there last year!

System needs changing. The private schools esp the famous ones have access to Oxbridge that other schools don't. They spend £££ lobbying the top uni' s and schools like Winchester have 15 places at Oxford set aside for them due to their charter. Eton always has a master on the board at Oxford. Fix is in before your child sits the exam

Private schools fill a niche. If private schools were abolished the government would need to open a lot of new schools.

YANBU but I'm afraid it will never happen in our class driven society. The UK is one of the most unequal countries in the world.
The arguments put forward by those who do take advantage of the system are laughable. If the finacially better off, better educated parents had to send their kids to the local comp they would demand higher standards, smaller class sizes etc. Instead they look for ways to avoid paying tax and they don't even pay VAT on their school fees.
Independent schools don't enhance society they hamper it. Even the music and film industries are dominated by privately educated people, the working classes hardly get a look in. It's not just an education they buy it's all the social and work contacts that come with it. We only have to look at Norway to see how it could work.
If you're interested @year5teacher then read Spirit Level, Why Equality is Better for Everyone, it's a real eye opener.

If you addded 20% VAT to school fees a few of the schools would close (with 500,000 more children added to the state system) and many would have to stop all scholarships and letting the public in to use the pools and that kind of thing so it could be an own goal

I would prefer parents having say £5k v oucher to use at any state or private school of their choice with a right to top up or else make school fees tax deductible as the 500,000 parents save the state a small fortune

@year5teacher that makes sense, I only have my own experience to pull from but when I was in secondary they trialled mixed sets for a year and quickly moved back to the old system. It didn't work and saw a big dip in moral for the higher level students.

I myself (top set) was sat next to lower set children in every class to try and 'help' them and it was a mixed bag but overall a negative experience. Sounds harsh but many lower set children are that way for a reason. Their lifestyle choices, parents choices and overall mental ability mean there isn't much worth in trying to push many of them.

If you want to learn and do better you will but by the time you get to secondary school especially it's a bit too late to instil a desire to do well in a child already down a certain path.

The only good experience I had was being sat next to one of our school 'gang' members in science, he seemed to really benefit from being sat next to me and I spent a lot of time tutoring him outside of school (as it benefited me having one of the most intimidating boys in school on your side) however it was all for nothing, he got good grades in science but was then kicked out at the end of school for setting fire to a girls hair... he now is a drug dealer just like his father.

I think there needs to be some serious head wobbling done for anyone who thinks all children not doing well in school are only doing so because they're not challenged in school. Most don't want to amount to much more and therefore don't

If you pay for your kids to go to private school you know you are buying something better than most people can afford or you wouldn't do it.

I disagree. I think people send kids to private schools for
-smaller classes
-more sport/ music/ extra curricular

• better SEN provision (in some cases)

But, they would rather that all parents could have these things. Nor are all private school parents right wing.

There's so much that needs to be done in terms of our society where kids go hungry and live in poverty. Wealth needs to be shared out more. I don't think abolishing private schools in itself will solve anything.

I believe in the right for parents to choose an education that suits their child and their values not just the one size fits all State system. The vast majority of of kids in the independent sector are from normal families where sacrifices are made to afford the fees, often because the independent sector can offer the SEN support that couldn’t be funded by the public purse. A very significant number of children in the private sector are in receipt of some sort of bursary, this is funded by the full fees paid by the high earners often from over seas. We’d loose all that investment if independent schools disappeared. I think one of the main factors people gravitate to the private sector is because you know your children will be in school with kids from families who also value education highly enough to go without foreign holidays or moving out of the 3 bed semi to send their children to school. So yes there are more extra curricular activities available but the most important thing is you tend to get less disruption from kids who don’t want to be there and whose parents aren’t invested in education

I'll say it again - all schools become 'State Schools' and all places at State Schools are allocated via local lottery. Truly mixed intake, no gaming the system, where you live becomes irrelevant, no point employing tutors, everybody has an interest in making schools the best they can be.

[quote suk44]Worth mentioning that the private school sector collectively probably had a big sigh a relief last December following the election result, yet just a few months later a lot of independent schools are now facing the biggest threat to their financial viability, and there have been predictions that many will close, just not for the reasons mentioned in the OP.

A lot of fee-paying schools were already under financial strain even before covid, but now add in the reduction in fees they've been able to charge last term (and potentially in future terms if there's a second wave/lockdown), the biggest recession for a century and major job losses meaning fewer people can afford to send their children to such schools, potential loss of lucrative international students due to potential future travel restrictions, Brexit and increasing political tensions with China, and a massive hike in contributions to the Teacher Pension Scheme.

The thread below discuss a lot of this. While the sector will continue... it's only a matter of time before more private schools go bust.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/3868573-Long-term-effect-of-coronavirus-crisis-on-private-school-sector[/quote]
I thought that, but I’m not sure it’s true. Here in Edinburgh there are spaces for the first time in ‘better’ state schools because parents decided private gave a better service to kids during covid. Private schools are heaving and one sent an email to parents saying if they were threatening to leave they could go because there was an enormous waiting list to take their Kid’s place.

@Marchitectmummy

Everything affects a child's trajectories, school is just one. What else do you want to ban: pushy parents, after school classes, single child families, where do you start and stop with this plan to equalise?

More support for single child families, less stigma for those single child families who have to claim benefits, more funding for state schools to provide after school activities.

It’s not about banning, it’s about providing.

The reason I think private schools should be abolished, is because I think they perpetuate and uphold structural inequality in this country, PPs have made really good points around how this might impact the state system though.

The argument of “well why don’t you just ban EVERYTHING” isn’t what anyone has said. It’s not like when people want to send their child to private school I go “oh well why don’t you just GIVE THEM EVERYTHING? why don’t you just pay for everything their entire life and make things so easy for them?” because that isn’t the logical conclusion and it forces people to then argue against something they never suggested in the first place.

I think it is an interesting discussion. The main flaw is that if you were to abolish them, the middle classes would move even more than now to be near the best state schools.

I do think the disparity between around £5-6k per pupil in the state sector and around 15-30k in the private sector is egregious.

I do think that even increasing the state sector funding to 7-8k per pupil would make a tremendous difference.

There is also room for bargain priced private schools which focus oh purely excellent academics without the country club aspects.

Finally, I think it is behoven upon private schools to really help with social mobility via bursaries and allowing talented state school pupils to join in with certain classes, events etc. Some already do very well in this area.

However banning them would be very counterproductive.

@Myothercarisalsoshit

I'll say it again - all schools become 'State Schools' and all places at State Schools are allocated via local lottery. Truly mixed intake, no gaming the system, where you live becomes irrelevant, no point employing tutors, everybody has an interest in making schools the best they can be.

It is relevant if you don’t have a car and have kids at two or three different schools. If kids have to get up early and catch 2 buses, there is a chance they just start bunking off or are late.

I've not read the whole thread but you can't blame under achieving state schools on achieving private schools. If anything achieving schools should be emulated.

My dc went /go to a wealthy state academy primary, with a very wealthy middle class base.

It only functions because dp buy in tutors when teaching fails which is does all the time. And other dp pay for 11+ tutoring.

The school seems unable to support struggling learners. It's defensive, obstructive and I'd love to move dd to a small genuinely nurturing private school where teachers would not speak to me the way I have been spoken too in our school.

I also believe over all, instead of mass centers of teaching all in one blob, we need more variety and not less.
We need more schools for physical children who want to move and be creative. More grammars for solid students, more visual creative schools for dc who learn visually and need a different teaching style.

Our school is high achieving and yet it's rubbish.

A It's not all higher earners, I took on extra work and daughter got a bursary B Where will all those pupils go, the state system can't handle the current load C Where will all the teachers go, not enough jobs for them all DThousands of foreign students bring lots of money into the country

Would you ban everything that money can buy? Would you insist that we all drive the same car, ate food from the same supermarket etc ...?
Money does buy you choices.

I do know someone who paid for one of her kids to go to private school due to problems he was having. Her view afterwards

'I paid to make my son a racist.'

This was of course not her intent

This thread highlights why the changes to state education are unlikely to happen: too many snug folk with money saying 'but life isn't fair so suck it up'. They'll probably continually vote for governments that have no interest in improving the state system because whilst they try to sound nice saying 'why not make all schools better' we know that privately they don't give a damn as long as their privileged DC continue to have a headstart and endless advantages.

They don't actually want the children from all backgrounds to have good resources and opportunities to shine as it might start to narrow the gap between advantaged and disadvantaged children. Whilst your average Mumsnetter is unlikely to be affording their DC the super elite experience of Eton, they've probably got nice pointy elbows and a desire to stop 'lesser' children being a threat to their DC.

Everything affects a child's trajectories, school is just one

The most influential element of a child’s life is their parents. They alone are responsible for the child/children and their much effort, stability, finances etc they put into that are down to the individuals.

There’s enough state help without any more. Parents should be the ones providing not the state, we should aim for less needing state help not more.

That private schools offer scholarships and bursaries so that justifies their charitable status really bugs me - so saving a hand picked kid from a state education is an act of charity? What does that tell you about state education.

Sounds harsh but many lower set children are that way for a reason. Their lifestyle choices, parents choices and overall mental ability mean there isn't much worth in trying to push many of them.

It may be idealistic but I have to respectfully say I couldn’t disagree more. I think a lot of the time as teachers we’re fighting against a tide of stuff we can’t control, so you are right there. I don’t like the stereotyping you’ve made, however, and honestly I’d argue that those children aren’t necessarily LA but have issues that need to be worked through before they’re ready to learn.

Ask me in 20 years of teaching but I really do believe in pushing every child regardless of ability to attain the best they can. There would be no point me doing my job if I didn’t think that. I think it’s simplistic to say they don’t want to achieve, and anyway if that’s true it’s really my job to make then want to. And then help them do it!

I agree OP. If people couldn't use their privilege to buy their kids an advantage, there would be greater public interest in making state schools fit for purpose. Plus you would create a level playing field so every child gets a chance and the chance is a quality one.

The reason I think private schools should be abolished, is because I think they perpetuate and uphold structural inequality in this country

I can see why you think this, but there's more to it. It's the networks parents have with one another, where they live, where they all go on holiday, giving one another kids work experience and internships and so on, what private clubs and things the parents are at, what professions they are in etc etc. Private school may be a symptom rather than the cause. If private schools closed down the whole thing would just move elsewhere.

@moofolk

I do know someone who paid for one of her kids to go to private school due to problems he was having. Her view afterwards

'I paid to make my son a racist.'

This was of course not her intent

God that’s really sad. That poor mother, I bet she feels awful, no one aims to make that happen.