Page 19 | Institutional Racism in our policing - Dawn Butler MP

AuntyPasta · 2020-08-09T17:48:20+00:00

[[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/09/labour-mp-dawn-butler-stopped-by-police-in-london]] The police stopped the car being driven by her friend (she was a passenger.) Unlike the elite athletes stopped with their 3 month old baby in the car [[https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/jul/06/why-did-police-stop-and-search-bianca-williams-and-ricardo-dos-santos]] she’s had an apology. AIBU to think that if she wasn’t an MP the police would be sticking by their ‘reasonable suspicion’? Is that what it takes to be dealt with fairly by the police?

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 10:28

It's ridiculous to stop anyone in the UK because their car "isn't from here" based on the registration plate

It was a completely different car

chomalungma. No mention of other reasons - and I am sure the police would have mentioned if there were other reasons

We don't know yet because the police cannot yet show us the full footage from body cams and DB has only shown us an edited version from her phone. The police could have said more besides "other area" to the driver and DB, they could have given a list of reasons besides that, but all we have is an edited version ATM

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 10:31

He was pulled over for another reason, then a check (they had to do it by radio not ANPR in those days) revealed the plates were false

You've kind of proved my point. The police suspected the number plates were false, pulled him over and checked and they were right

ProfessorSlocombe · 13/08/2020 10:35

[quote DdraigGoch]@balhammom is talking about whether there were lawful grounds for a search.

@SimonJT is talking about whether his searches were lawfully conducted.

Two different issues.[/quote]
You can't lawfully conduct an unlawful search.

Well not in the real world. Maybe police fantasy land.

It's like you can't make a stolen object legal by selling it.

Hingeandbracket · 13/08/2020 10:36

@Flaxmeadow

He was pulled over for another reason, then a check (they had to do it by radio not ANPR in those days) revealed the plates were false

You've kind of proved my point. The police suspected the number plates were false, pulled him over and checked and they were right

Er no - they pulled him over because he was Kerb crawling in the red light district of sheffield and had picked up a prostitute. They didn't suspect the plates - just ran a routine check. So I haven't proved your point at all. In fact the ripper is terrible example of Policing, and lessons were learned.

Hingeandbracket · 13/08/2020 10:38

@Flaxmeadow

It's ridiculous to stop anyone in the UK because their car "isn't from here" based on the registration plate

It was a completely different car

chomalungma. No mention of other reasons - and I am sure the police would have mentioned if there were other reasons

We don't know yet because the police cannot yet show us the full footage from body cams and DB has only shown us an edited version from her phone. The police could have said more besides "other area" to the driver and DB, they could have given a list of reasons besides that, but all we have is an edited version ATM

It was a completely different car So they weren't stopping it for being from Yorkshire? So why lie about that? The Police story doesn't stack up.

chomalungma · 13/08/2020 10:38

We don't know yet because the police cannot yet show us the full footage from body cams and DB has only shown us an edited version from her phone. The police could have said more besides "other area" to the driver and DB, they could have given a list of reasons besides that, but all we have is an edited version AT

If the car's plates (the ones incorrectly entered) showed an issue (e.g outstanding warrants, offences etc), then I am sure the police would have mentioned that. They don't have to give any details, and seeing as how no ones knows the plates, there would be no data protection issues.

The reason they were pulled over seems to have been because the incorrectly entered plates did not match the car in front of them and this sparked 'curiosity'. Which it should do - as you said, cloned plates are a thing.

I would be very interested to see:

a) The full video from Dawn Butler
b) The body cam video from the police
c) The dash cam from the police car from the initial point they saw the car

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 10:40

If the car's plates (the ones incorrectly entered) showed an issue (e.g outstanding warrants, offences etc), then I am sure the police would have mentioned that

How do you know they didn't mention something like that?

All we have is one version and edited phone footage. The police probably did give other reasons

ProfessorSlocombe · 13/08/2020 10:41

But Dawn Butler is a serving MP, a mature woman. She in my opinion didn’t handle the situation all that well. She immediately began filming before the officer approached her and didn’t give the officer a chance to speak.

I think you'll find she did those things because she's an experienced black MP and knows much better than a lot of posters here the optics of black people stopped by the police in London. Especially coming so soon after the recently publicised stop of Bianca Williams the OP cited.

Besides, it's not unlawful to film the police in a public place. After all, if they have nothing to hide, they absolutely have nothing to fear.

HijabiVenus · 13/08/2020 10:45

Has Dawn Butler suggested how (within current budgets) the horrific killings in London are stopped and turned around?

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 10:47

So they weren't stopping it for being from Yorkshire?
So why lie about that?
The Police story doesn't stack up.

They havent lied about it. All we have is one version and DB edited phone footage. It was DB who said they were stopped only for that reason not the police. But the body cam could show the police listing other reasons as well. There might be a list of reasons and the "other area" might only be one them

chomalungma · 13/08/2020 10:47

How do you know they didn't mention something like that

From ALL the statements posted by the police and articles quoted here written by senior police officers in the Met.

Including the ones you quoted.

"A mistake was made, however, when an officer incorrectly entered the car's registration into his computer, Sir Steve said, adding that was when the Police National Computer returned details of a car from another region of the UK"

As a result, he said, the officers had decided to conduct further checks by stopping the vehicle and engaging with its occupants.

He said: "I expect officers to have professional curiosity and I would have done the same""

ProfessorSlocombe · 13/08/2020 10:50

@Hingeandbracket

The Yorkshire Ripper was caught for the simple and only reason he had false number plates He was pulled over for another reason, then a check (they had to do it by radio not ANPR in those days) revealed the plates were false. Citing that as an example is a really poor one - the Police had previously interviewed Sutcliffe several times and made serious errors. Even when they arrested him they allowed him to go and hide evidence when he used the excuse he needed a wee.

It's not a great boost for West Yorkshire police to keep reminding people that Peter Sutcliffe was caught by accident. And it seems odd to use it as a defence here ... look at all the times the police have got lucky when they fuck up.

It might be OK for the system of government we are currently developing, but as a law and order strategy it's probably best left in the "novel ideas" box.

And now the Ripper case has been referenced, I think it's fair to note the lives lost to him while West Yorkshire police were watching Keystone Cops films as training material. Arguably their biggest mistake (never once explained, by the way) was to ignore all the advice of professionals about the Wearside tape (including the FBI expert who literally "wrote the book" on catching serial killers - he told them it wasn't the ripper. But what do Americans know, eh ?)

ProfessorSlocombe · 13/08/2020 10:53

In fact the ripper is terrible example of Policing, and lessons were learned.

If any were (and I remain deeply sceptical) they were forgotten by the time of the Colin Stagg pantomime. This time it took a high court judge to call the polices incompetence out (and boy, did he).

ProfessorSlocombe · 13/08/2020 10:55

@HijabiVenus

Has Dawn Butler suggested how (within current budgets) the horrific killings in London are stopped and turned around?

Have you ? You're both exactly equal to the job, what with not being in government and all that ?

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 10:55

chomalungma

But we don't know. That senior policeman migh not know. He might have only seen the DB footage as well. He is from the Police Federation I think? A kind of union, though i don't think the police are allowed to technically have a union only the federation

I'm sure there is some kind of investigation going on, but it will be by a specialised force and the evidence confidential ATM. We simply do not know the full conversation yet

That the car was different is enough to stop it anyway.

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 10:57

In fact the ripper is terrible example of Policing, and lessons were learned

That his wife alibied him to the police numerous times didn't help either

thedancingbear · 13/08/2020 11:01

Fucking hell, so many people bending over backwards to excuse and explain away racism, when it is as plain as the nose on your face.

The recent attention on this subject matter, although pretty depressing, has been useful in illuminating how much bigotry and prejudice there still is in the UK. People know that they will never get away with overt racist statements and actions nowadays, so they have just learnt how to couch things 'better'.

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 11:04

Fucking hell, so many people bending over backwards to excuse and explain away racism,

No. They just have a different opinion on policing. It is allowed

What evidence is there that those police officers were being racist?

chomalungma · 13/08/2020 11:08

That the car was different is enough to stop it anyway

Human error.

What evidence is there that those police officers were being racist

There could be a number of things going on. We don't know so this is speculation.

What prompted them to run the plates in the first place?
When they saw that the plates entered (incorrectly) were different to the car in front of them, did the evidence presented to them and the reason for running the plates confirm something in their mind that made them suspicious - confirmation bias when we are presented with evidence and look for evidence that confirms our world view.

We all have confirmation bias - and it's very hard to shake off.

We don't have access to their 'thought processes'.

thedancingbear · 13/08/2020 11:10

It is allowed

Of course it's allowed, I've never suggested otherwise. In like fashion, i'm allowed to think that the gaggle of posters pouring suspicious amounts of time and effort into defending police harassment of black people are racists who lack the courage of their convictions.

It's not about what you can and can't say. It's about people being fucking racist.

Does that work better for you?

blurpityblurp · 13/08/2020 11:18

Flax is clearly a racist. They’re not remotely trying to hide it.

HijabiVenus · 13/08/2020 11:19

Well listening to the large number of victims parents/families who are majority black, they are happy with "stop and search" to continue.

Despite attracting the hatred of some in their community a number of black and minority men and women become police officers and try to help make their communities better.

It is a shame that some including the usual suspects and those who glorify criminals and criminal activity in music, word and song vilify these courageous individuals.

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 11:30

chomalungma
There could be a number of things going on. We don't know so this is speculation

Exactly

What prompted them to run the plates in the first place?

They dont have to have a prompt. The police do it all the time, to me, to you, to everybody, it's just that we don't notice because most of the time there isn't a problem.

SmileEachDay · 13/08/2020 11:30

HijabiVenus

Stop and search makes only a very, very small impact on crime levels - most often low level drug offences.