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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Institutional Racism in our policing - Dawn Butler MP

525 replies

AuntyPasta · 09/08/2020 18:48

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/09/labour-mp-dawn-butler-stopped-by-police-in-london

The police stopped the car being driven by her friend (she was a passenger.) Unlike the elite athletes stopped with their 3 month old baby in the car www.theguardian.com/law/2020/jul/06/why-did-police-stop-and-search-bianca-williams-and-ricardo-dos-santos she’s had an apology.

AIBU to think that if she wasn’t an MP the police would be sticking by their ‘reasonable suspicion’? Is that what it takes to be dealt with fairly by the police?

OP posts:
PicsInRed · 13/08/2020 06:16

@Hearwego

It should be hard for the police to stop anyone unless it’s justified. Maybe it’ll make them do their jobs properly & not stop black people for spurious reasons. I mean... c’mon... wearing glasses as a reason to stop & search??!! Outrageous what they’ve been getting away with.**

The Met police are saying they didn’t know the occupants ethnic origin. Also can’t the Police stop any motor vehicle on a public road under the road traffic act 1988?
I’ve been stopped just for pulling out of a Harvester carpark because they wanted to see if I had been drinking. Was this stop unlawful?
Hackney is a diverse area. Many black men have died in a London due to knife crime. How can the police effectively combat this without stopping people? Genuine question by the way because no one has the answers yet.
And finally Dawn Butler wasn’t stopped it was the driver. Was he white or black? I don’t actually know.

The driver was black. DB has confirmed this and since reconfirned it.

The police could address crime in black communities by assisting victims of crime in black communities, not by harassing black people trying to travel through other areas.

Hearwego · 13/08/2020 07:44

There does seem to be a lot of arm chair detectives on here, who seem to be experts on policing. Even though I doubt most people on here have ever had to put themselves in harms way in the name of service.
The term institutionally racist was used back in the 90s, and personally I don’t find this term to helpful as it just causes even more tension.
The Met have actively been trying to recruit ethnic minority recruits since the Stephen Lawrence case, particularly since the turn of the millennium. I’m sure at one point ,ethnic minority’s had a bigger advantage of joining than white people, due to the recruitment targets.
They can’t physically force anyone to join.
But people on here have never done a days coppering in their lives but seem to have all the answers, so crack on.

PicsInRed · 13/08/2020 08:01

They can’t physically force anyone to join.

They can immediately fire police who abuse their power (e.g. caught on camera kneeling on a neck). Those remaining would think carefully before putting their own mortgage at risk.

Just like the law - there's carrot and then there's stick.

SmileEachDay · 13/08/2020 08:06

Genuine question by the way because no one has the answers yet

[https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-45572691 Scotland’s Violence Reduction Unit]]

I posted this earlier in the thread - it’s a multi agency approach that has had a significant impact in Glasgow particularly. Police/Health/Education working together.

SmileEachDay · 13/08/2020 08:06

Scotland’s Violence Reduction Unit

DdraigGoch · 13/08/2020 08:15

@PicsInRed

They can’t physically force anyone to join.

They can immediately fire police who abuse their power (e.g. caught on camera kneeling on a neck). Those remaining would think carefully before putting their own mortgage at risk.

Just like the law - there's carrot and then there's stick.

Just when was the last time that someone was unlawfully killed by a British police officer? Comparisons with the US are not helpful.
Hearwego · 13/08/2020 08:16

Ok so Mumsneters have the answers on policing, reading the daily mail and watching the BBC, seems to make everyone an expert on being a police officer.
Most officers I have spoken to have said that whilst it’s far from perfect, the job has drastically changed since the 90s.

Hearwego · 13/08/2020 08:17

Just when was the last time that someone was unlawfully killed by a British police officer? Comparisons with the US are not helpful.**

Exactly this. But as ever people on here know better.

LakieLady · 13/08/2020 08:19

Out of interest, could some white posters on here state how many times the police have stopped them in their car. Can they also state how often they have been subjected to stop and search while out in public

Vehicle stopped twice, both times where they were stopping all cars leaving a given area, and never stopped and searched.

SmileEachDay · 13/08/2020 08:20

Ok so Mumsneters have the answers on policing, reading the daily mail and watching the BBC, seems to make everyone an expert on being a police officer

Was that aimed at me?

Hearwego · 13/08/2020 08:22

But Dawn Butler is a serving MP, a mature woman. She in my opinion didn’t handle the situation all that well. She immediately began filming before the officer approached her and didn’t give the officer a chance to speak. She wasn’t even the driver.
If anything I think she inflamed the situation and has just made matters worse.
Also what if their was a genuine reason for the stop, I mean she didn’t know the drivers history. He could have had been stopped for previous offence for driving.
I know in this instance this wasn’t the case but it could have been for all she knew.

Hearwego · 13/08/2020 08:23

Was that aimed at me?**

No smile it wasn’t aimed at you.

LakieLady · 13/08/2020 08:33

I agree stop and search breeds resentment but the Gov wants low crime figures without putting in the funding - your options would take years.
If the gov wanted to stop it I'm sure they could pass legislation But easier to let it run as it reduces crime and the police take all the flak as the racist bad guys

I don't think stop and search needs to be stopped, but it needs to be recorded and monitored. If ethnicity of people stopped in vehicle searches was recorded, in the same way that it is for stopping and searching people in the street, those figures would show whether or not black people are being disproportionately stopped.

Rubyupbeat · 13/08/2020 08:34

I own a particular type of expensive car, I am 56, not black, ginger hair and a woman, no criminal record, nor does anyone I am associated with, I have been stopped and searched 6 times in 3 years when driving through Hackney in said car. Also stopped at roadside as particularly make has been flagged up stolen. Same said for sons who drive merc sports cars, they are white too and totally clean.
When I drive my more common 4wd I am never ever stopped.
Sorry, but I always believe there is a reason you are stopped, even if you are innocent, your car could fit a profile.

LakieLady · 13/08/2020 08:53

If the UK subscribed to the fruit of the poison tree doctrine, a lot of criminal cases would fail at the first hurdle. Luckily the idea that the police should obey the law is a distressingly foreign concept in England. To the relief of some posters here, I can see

I'm totally with you on this, @ProfessorSlocombe. All the time that tainted evidence is admissible in prosecution, all parties are not equal before the court and that should be a fundamental principle of any judicial system.

It's another reason why we should have a written constitution, too.

reepicheepsconscience · 13/08/2020 08:54

Funnily enough, even though every car I've owned has been registered in West Yorkshire, I've never been stopped in other parts of the country for that reason in nearly 40 years of driving. But then I'm female, white and middle class.

chomalungma · 13/08/2020 09:41

Most officers I have spoken to have said that whilst it’s far from perfect, the job has drastically changed since the 90s

Channel 4 are looking at policing and race relations in detail at the moment. There seems to be little trust and confidence in the police from young adult members of the black community in London.

Those are the people who should be being listened to in this.

chomalungma · 13/08/2020 09:43

But Dawn Butler is a serving MP, a mature woman. She in my opinion didn’t handle the situation all that well. She immediately began filming before the officer approached her and didn’t give the officer a chance to speak. She wasn’t even the driver

Have you seen the full video?
I haven't. It's not on the internet as far as I can see.

Hingeandbracket · 13/08/2020 09:51

Out of interest, could some white posters on here state how many times the police have stopped them in their car. Can they also state how often they have been subjected to stop and search while out in public

I am white and stopped to fuckery by often rude and arrogant Police when younger. It was fucking annoying as I wasn’t doing anything wrong.

I am very much opposed to this - studies have shown that the effect on crime is negligible at best, and it is clear that whatever the intention, ethnic minorities are unfairly targeted. A PP posted a link to the excellent alternative from Glasgow. Just because “Daily Mail/pub logic” says stop everyone doesn’t actually make it effective

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 10:03

People are missing the point. The police check number plates all the time and most of the time no one in those cars knows that it's happening, "Officers will often check cars"

The police officer entered the wrong number plate into the system and so a different car result came up. This did not match the description of the car DB was in. So the police stopped the car. It wasn't just about that it was from another area. It was also a completely different car. It (the other North Yorkshire car) could have been stolen or have cloned number plates or be a ringer or have a criminal history (the car or the owner/previous owner), be uninsured and so on, but apart from any of of that, the car simply did not match

From the police statement

"Criminals often use vehicles to travel in and to commit crime, therefore officers will often check cars to see if there is anything that requires them to stop it and do further checks."

"The officers ran a number plate check on the vehicle. At this stage, the officers still didn't know who the occupants of the car were, including their ethnicity because the car windows were tinted."

"A mistake was made, however, when an officer incorrectly entered the car's registration into his computer, Sir Steve said, adding that was when the Police National Computer returned details of a car from another region of the UK"

As a result, he said, the officers had decided to conduct further checks by stopping the vehicle and engaging with its occupants.

He said: "I expect officers to have professional curiosity and I would have done the same."

"Having viewed video footage Sir Steve said the officers "acted professionally and politely, explaining why the stop was made and, when realising there was a mistake, explaining this and continuing to answer the occupants' questions".

chomalungma · 13/08/2020 10:08

People are missing the point. The police check number plates all the time and most of the time no one in those cars knows that it's happening, "Officers will often check cars

You are missing the point.
Don't you think the police should have double checked before pulling someone over?

The conversation was probably one of these:

"Look, there's a car. I'll put the plates in"
"It's from North Yorkshire. Let's pull it over"

Or

"Look, there's a car. I'll put the plates in"
"That's strange. It doesn't match the car in front of us. Let's pull it in"

It should have been:

"Look, there's a car. I'll put the plates in.
That's strange. It's a Range Rover from North Yorkshire. I'll just double check.
Oh, it's now a Mercedes from Hackney. "

And no pulling them over.

I'd imagine that stopping a car is time consuming so needs to be done only if absolutely necessary.

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2020 10:19

Don't you think the police should have double checked before pulling someone over

In a perfect world yes. But as others have pointed out, there might have been other reasons the police pulled the car over as well. Also if a criminal becomes aware they are being followed by the police, they could drive off and try to avoid them. The Yorkshire Ripper was caught for the simple and only reason he had false number plates

Before I get jumped on. Please don't take that the wrong way. I understand DB and her friend probably did nothing wrong at all and yes I do understand they are not serial killers, but false or cloned number plates is a thing

Hingeandbracket · 13/08/2020 10:22

It's ridiculous to stop anyone in the UK because their car "isn't from here" based on the registration plate.
There are letters indicating where the car was FIRST registered but it can be sold to a person from anywhere.
There is zero logic to the Police position, ZERO.
It is just a weak excuse.

chomalungma · 13/08/2020 10:22

In a perfect world yes. But as others have pointed out, there might have been other reasons the police pulled the car over as well

Well, apparently it was 'professional curiosity' they pulled them over as the plates didn't match the car in front of them according to that statement you posted. No mention of other reasons - and I am sure the police would have mentioned if there were other reasons.

But we are going round in circles.

I hope the police learn from this. A simple double check would save an embarrassing incident.

Hingeandbracket · 13/08/2020 10:27

The Yorkshire Ripper was caught for the simple and only reason he had false number plates
He was pulled over for another reason, then a check (they had to do it by radio not ANPR in those days) revealed the plates were false.
Citing that as an example is a really poor one - the Police had previously interviewed Sutcliffe several times and made serious errors. Even when they arrested him they allowed him to go and hide evidence when he used the excuse he needed a wee.