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Original poster

Institutional Racism in our policing - Dawn Butler MP

525 replies

AuntyPasta · 09/08/2020 18:48

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/09/labour-mp-dawn-butler-stopped-by-police-in-london

The police stopped the car being driven by her friend (she was a passenger.) Unlike the elite athletes stopped with their 3 month old baby in the car www.theguardian.com/law/2020/jul/06/why-did-police-stop-and-search-bianca-williams-and-ricardo-dos-santos she’s had an apology.

AIBU to think that if she wasn’t an MP the police would be sticking by their ‘reasonable suspicion’? Is that what it takes to be dealt with fairly by the police?

OP posts:
SmileEachDay · 12/08/2020 19:19

The lengths some posters are going to to insist that it cannot possibly be about race are mind boggling.

We will never deal with institutional racism unless we’re prepared to have a bit of honestly when talking about it.

SimonJT · 12/08/2020 19:20

Sorry I forgot the link for that one so here is a second quote and article. (You can also see the rear tints in the video).

“Another officer had claimed tinted rear windows on the car could be illegal. The law about tinting on windows applies only to the windscreen and front windows.”

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/12/senior-met-officer-defends-police-who-stopped-dawn-butler

BoogieLowenstein · 12/08/2020 19:28

Thank you for that very unbiased Guardian link (that doesn’t work anyway)

SimonJT · 12/08/2020 19:31

Oh it does for me, maybe its because I linked from google, hopefully this one will work.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/12/senior-met-officer-defends-police-who-stopped-dawn-butler

chomalungma · 12/08/2020 19:36

Tinted front windows are illegal. Are you saying that the police shouldn’t stop a car with an illegal modification in case it is being driven by a BAME person? Dawn Butler was a passenger in a vehicle with an illegal modification but doesn’t believe that the car should have been stopped because they are black

Dawn Butler says that the front windows weren't tinted.
The police report does not mention the front windows - the person just says they couldn't see because there were tinted windows.

It's also not illegal to have tinted front windows either

www.gov.uk/tinted-vehicle-window-rules

Vehicles first used on 1 April 1985 or later
The front windscreen must let at least 75% of light through and the front side windows must let at least 70% of light through.

SmileEachDay · 12/08/2020 19:38

BoogieLowenstein

Do you believe institutional racism exists in the U.K. police force?

Countrysidelife54 · 12/08/2020 19:40

'The lengths some posters are going to to insist that it cannot possibly be about race are mind boggling.'

If the back windows were tinted so they couldnt see the occupants how were they pulled over because they were black?
I find it mind boggling you dont understand people questioning that.

chomalungma · 12/08/2020 19:53

If the back windows were tinted so they couldnt see the occupants how were they pulled over because they were blac

Because people sit in the front?

SimonJT · 12/08/2020 19:56

@chomalungma

If the back windows were tinted so they couldnt see the occupants how were they pulled over because they were blac

Because people sit in the front?

Maybe the driver had really long arms and legs 😂
SmileEachDay · 12/08/2020 20:00

Countrysidelife54

Do you believe that the police in the U.K. are institutionally racist?

Countrysidelife54 · 12/08/2020 20:07

'Because people sit in the front?'

If you are driving behind someone and they have blacked out back windows you cant see who is driving, how hard is that for you to understand?

Countrysidelife54 · 12/08/2020 20:08

'Maybe the driver had really long arms and legs 😂'

Do u have special powers when driving behind a vehicle to beable to see through their blacked out back windows what they look like?
Because I don't.

chomalungma · 12/08/2020 20:15

@Countrysidelife54

'Because people sit in the front?'

If you are driving behind someone and they have blacked out back windows you cant see who is driving, how hard is that for you to understand?

So why do you think they decided to manually do a number plate check?

They see a car with rear tinted windows.
They run a plate check.
They incorrectly put the details in and then a car comes up that's registered to North Yorkshire. There may be something else about the occupants of the North Yorkshire car on record that alerts them - but we don't know that.

They decide to pull the car over. Even though the details of the car in front of them are different to the car on their computer.

And then find out they've pulled over a black MP - and her black friend.

Not a good day for those police.

It would be interesting to know their reason for pulling over the car - did the 'alleged occupants raise suspicion on their computer?"

isathal · 12/08/2020 20:25

I don't understand your point. The scenario you describe sounds like it may or may not have been racist. As for stopping an MP, does being an MP mean you are automatically immune to investigation ?

chomalungma · 12/08/2020 20:39

@isathal

I don't understand your point. The scenario you describe sounds like it may or may not have been racist. As for stopping an MP, does being an MP mean you are automatically immune to investigation ?
The points are:

  1. The police fucked up by putting in an incorrect registration in and not realising the car in front of them was different to the one on the computer

  2. Why did they put the details in in the first place? What made them do it?

  3. Why did they then decide to pull the car over?

  4. As for being an MP - of course MPs can be pulled over. But if you are the police and you make a mistake like this, then the MP - like other figures with a platform - can use that platform to highlight such mistakes.

Hearwego · 12/08/2020 22:49

The police federation want the Police body cams footage to be released.
I think in this situation that’s the right thing to do, let them at least put their side across.

Hearwego · 12/08/2020 22:51

When I’ve watched police programs before they have also pulled over cars with tinted windows, they wouldn’t have known who was driving presumably.
I do think that it’s going to be very hard for any white officer in London to stop a black driver, even if it’s justified.

Hingeandbracket · 12/08/2020 23:03

The North Yorkshire thing is fucking ridiculous anyway. People sell cars to people in other areas - we don’t change plates when we change areas like the USA. I am selling my car (first registered somewhere down South) to a bloke in Scotland. Will he get stopped all the time in Scotland for being “out of area”? It’s just a bollocks excuse.

Hearwego · 12/08/2020 23:15

Yes the wrong registration number , coming from Yorkshire doesn’t sound convincing to me, perhaps this was made up for damage limitation purposes? No one can prove otherwise can they?

VillanellesOrangeCoat · 12/08/2020 23:47

@hearwego

I do think that it’s going to be very hard for any white officer in London to stop a black driver, even if it’s justified.

It should be hard for the police to stop anyone unless it’s justified. Maybe it’ll make them do their jobs properly & not stop black people for spurious reasons. I mean... c’mon... wearing glasses as a reason to stop & search??!! Outrageous what they’ve been getting away with.

DdraigGoch · 12/08/2020 23:47

@balhammom is talking about whether there were lawful grounds for a search.

@SimonJT is talking about whether his searches were lawfully conducted.

Two different issues.

DdraigGoch · 12/08/2020 23:53

They decide to pull the car over. Even though the details of the car in front of them are different to the car on their computer.
@chomalungma that alone is enough of a reason for pulling a car over. If a car is a different one to the one registered to the DVLA, is it on false plates? If it's a different colour, has it been resprayed and why?

In this case it was a simple error when inputting it by the officer. Officers are human, it's amazing how hard it is to spot a mistake when you've just written something.

JamieLeeCurtains · 13/08/2020 00:26

In this case it was a simple error when inputting it by the officer. Officers are human, it's amazing how hard it is to spot a mistake when you've just written something

Nevertheless this was supposedly the Violent Crime Taskforce in Hackney, not Craig from Corrie.

Hearwego · 13/08/2020 01:04

It should be hard for the police to stop anyone unless it’s justified. Maybe it’ll make them do their jobs properly & not stop black people for spurious reasons. I mean... c’mon... wearing glasses as a reason to stop & search??!! Outrageous what they’ve been getting away with.**

The Met police are saying they didn’t know the occupants ethnic origin. Also can’t the Police stop any motor vehicle on a public road under the road traffic act 1988?
I’ve been stopped just for pulling out of a Harvester carpark because they wanted to see if I had been drinking. Was this stop unlawful?
Hackney is a diverse area. Many black men have died in a London due to knife crime. How can the police effectively combat this without stopping people? Genuine question by the way because no one has the answers yet.
And finally Dawn Butler wasn’t stopped it was the driver. Was he white or black? I don’t actually know.

AllesAusLiebe · 13/08/2020 01:41

In my limited experience with the police force in this country, if I'm stopped, I pull over.

Every week on this board, teachers are routinely pilloried for getting things wrong and sensible conclusions tend to prevail. Why are police officers fair game when it comes to criticism when it is usually acceptable that those in a position of authority occasionally get things wrong? We don't actually know the reason for the stop.