To ask your opinion on this #WorldBreastfeedingWeek debate

[Napqueen1234]

Sorry if this sounds childish referred to social media etc but interested to canvas opinions.

A friend of mine shared a post on Instagram re world breastfeeding week about how it’s the best thing for baby and mum, so proud she could do it, perseverance etc. She’s a very zealous breastfeeder generally (and why not!) and was a good person to go to for advice when I was struggling although did say she was ‘disappointed I had given in’ after 2 months. Anyway!

Another friend then shared a post about Fed Is Best (she struggled bf and switched to formula and has always found it difficult seeing bf women, a lot of guilt and sadness that I feel she needs to process somehow) and how WBW is just another stick to beat ‘failed breast feeders’ with and anyone who wants to breastfeed gets loads of support from midwives etc and generally society nowadays so it isn’t needed.

Both have since messaged me about the other stating they are upset (we are a close group of 4, the other doesn’t have DC so I suppose I’m mediator). Friend one feels like this is one week where BF should be celebrated and acknowledged is better. Friend two feels mother’s should be more understanding to the feelings of those that couldn’t breastfeed and not ‘brag’.

I have remained fairly moderate and tried to calm things but who do you think is right?

YABU- it’s world breastfeeding week! It’s best let them have their moment.

YANBU- it can make women feel very sad who didn’t bf or who ‘failed’ so social media posts should be mindful of this.

"There’s an assumption that FF mums will be forcing the ounces down when that’s not the case IME"

I don't think that's the case either, but it is possible to overfeed a bottle fed baby just due to the nature of baby suck/swallow reflexes. So they might be unintentionally overfeeding, which I'm sure HVs are on the look out for. If you'd had your breastfed baby first, then the formula fed baby second, perhaps they'd have been less concerned as the older baby tracked a similar percentile.

As regards the "brainwashing" from formula companies, perhaps people don't feel "brainwashed", but it's present every time a child gets a doll and it comes with a bottle (because a child pretending to breastfeed a doll would be weird, right?

Got to disagree here.

Don't assume that anyone using formula has been "brainwashed" because it is patronising nonsense that downplays the simple fact that is nothing to do with you how another woman chooses to feed her baby. If the other woman asks your opinion, give it by all means. But don't assume anyone using formula is brainwashed because they couldn't possibly choose formula for any other reason. It's just rude. If you bothered to read this thread in it's entirety you'd see many, many opinions and perspectives other than your own (which one might suggest could also be described as "brainwashed" if we were being unkind) and each one of those opinions is as valid and as acceptable as any of yours.

I taught Reception and have worked in Education for years and have seen so many DC play with dolls and talk about both breast and bottle feeding them. I've seen my own DC lift up their t-shirts when they were little and announce to me "I'm feeding baby". Children can comprehend from a very young age that some babies are breastfed, some are bottle-fed and I find it hugely ironic that young children have very little issue with it, despite it being such a contentious issue for so many adults.

This is a weird conversation. I can’t race in triathlons, or do a yoga headstand, but I don’t resent other people being able to do it, and I applaud them for it. If someone says jogging or yoga is good for people I don’t feel the need to pick it apart or disagree.

BF is obviously best. But, It doesn’t work out for everyone for both health and social reasons. Thank goodness those babies have Formula. We’ll never know what the marginal difference for them was, if any. At a population level there are measurable benefits though. So, if a mother can BF, why wouldn’t she? (And by can, I mean she has the emotional, social and economic support to do so.). Treating BF like a meaningless lifestyle choice let’s society off the hook. No need to be BF friendly/supportive if it’s just a meaningless lifestyle choice.

Your friend is a sanctimonious dick for saying she was disappointed in you for “giving” in. Grade A twat. I wouldn’t want to be friends with someone so judgemental and rude.

Someone who would say that is likely to post similar sanctimonious crap so if that’s what the other friend was complaining about then I’m with her.

@Piglet89

" that’s what FF mothers feel it’s like every time someone expresses surprise or tries to deter an unhappy mother who actually would be much happier giving a baby formula is like feeding it poison"

Really? It feels like the Gestapo? You've heard of them right? The Nazi secret police force which played a key role in the holocaust?

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure breastfeeding supporters never killed anyone. You definitely can't say the same thing about formula companies though.

Express - not everyone wants to bf regardless of whether they could or not. There doesn’t have to be a medical or social reason to decide not to.

i don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure breastfeeding supporters never killed anyone.

They’ve come damn close.

Haven’t you read my previous posts about jaundiced and dehydrated babies rushed to NICU for IV drip treatment because of blind insistence on EBF?

@Piglet89

Yes, fed is best, but breastfeeding in itself is best of all...

I know this. I’m a highly intelligent, informed woman. There’s really no need to repeat it ad infinitum and dream up yet more tedious comparisons to the differences between BF and formula. It serves to make FF women feel shit and will do precisely nothing to increase BF rates in the U.K. - I guarantee it.

The trouble is that not everybody is a highly intelligent, informed woman. Some are of average intelligence, some of lower; that's just how it is.

You were able to hear opinions from both sides and make a decision. But not all women have that experience - they don't get to hear an opposing view based upon scientific principles. And telling campaigners to not inform future women of the known benefits or advantages so they can make an informed choice - because it makes you feel bad - goes against the whole principle of you making a decision. It creates what's known now as an echo chamber, which takes away knowledge and choice.

I didn't even know what breastfeeding was as a child. Babies had bottles. Breasts were things that were photographed for page 3-5 of the newspaper. Sex education at school consisted of (age 11) 'Breast and penises grow when you start puberty. This is where the sperm joins the egg, the baby grows and comes out here' and (Age 13) 'These are all the diseases you can get if you have sex'. Nothing about breasts' primary function. Once I was pregnant, I was vaguely aware of breastfeeding (but also that my mother thought it was something animals, Africans and weird hippy types who liked the feeling did - her words), but it was the information in the various leaflets and books I read that helped me know and make my choice. From campaigning. From awareness.

I'm a relatively intelligent person (at least I like to think so) - but without that knowledge, the knowledge that you don't want other women to be given in case it makes somebody feel bad, how could I make an informed choice?

@FudgeBrownie2019

Actually, if you'd read my post properly, you'd have noticed that all the examples I listed were people who aren't the breastfeeding/formula feeding mum. The UK no longer has a breastfeeding culture, which surely you can't argue has nothing to do with the historical advertising/promotion/pushing of formula by unethical companies. They say it takes a village, so if a mum wants to breastfeed, she needs the specific support of trained and educated individuals (and should also research herself), otherwise the prevailing old wives tales surface and relatives question if she has enough milk, or ask why baby is feeding again, or ask what schedule her baby is on... which all can contribute to a feeling of self-doubt in the mother, reducing the liklihood of her reaching her breastfeeding goals (whether that's one month, 6 months, a year, or more).

@Piglet89

Which is surely due to inadequate provision of health care professionals and a lack of training? Nice side-step of the culpability of formula companies though.

So, if a mother can BF, why wouldn’t she? (And by can, I mean she has the emotional, social and economic support to do so

Cos she may not want to. That simple.
Once you start to say well she has xyz in place so she CAN opens her up for being judged if she don't want to bf. That then leaves her with the situation of feed how you want and be questioned by everyone or force something you don't wanna do to avoid judgement. CAN is the judgement inviting word.

Why not just say if a mother wants to and chooses to bf we should have xyz support in place. It should be available to any woman who wants it.
Both ways of feeding are perfectly valid and neither deserve judgement though. The language needs to change.

@AlmostAlwyn

Which is surely due to inadequate provision of health care professionals and a lack of training? Nice side-step of the culpability of formula companies though.

Sorry, which of the two issues you’ve mentioned: inadequate provision of health care professionals and a lack of training, do self-congratulatory and unnecessary posts on social media about breastfeeding journeys address?

'So, if a mother can BF, why wouldn’t she? (And by can, I mean she has the emotional, social and economic support to do so.).'

Because they may not wish to

And I fit beautifully I'm sure into the demographic of your 'supported' mother.

Older first time mum
18 months mat Leave
Financially secure
Supportive DH

Oh but then I had a ELCS too.

We don't all fit into these 'why wouldn't you' moulds

Sad that women can lack such self awareness.

There are some wonderful advocates for BF on MN who give amazing advice. Sadly these threads always seem to attract a few which fall into....another category.

@MitziK

The trouble is that not everybody is a highly intelligent, informed woman. Some are of average intelligence, some of lower; that's just how it is.

Yep: I’m at a distinct advantage already and BF still didn't work out for me. And my belief is that my son struggled to latch because of his tongue tie (but, crucially, and tellingly, it was never specifically diagnosed why we struggled).

Now, assume the SM posts do normalise breastfeeding (and that’s a big assumption, in my view). Women who see them who, up until that point weren’t considering breastfeeding then say “Oh look, it’s perfectly normal and natural - I’ll give it a go”. Then they have my experience with dreadful midwife care and no MW visit until day 8 when my son was discharged on day 5. They still won’t be able to BF - because of those issues.

The key to improving U.K. BF rates is definitely better practical, timely physical and emotional, in-person support. The standard of all this in UK postnatal wards is dreadful.

And meaningless, boasting boasts on SM will never fix that.

@Piglet89

Of course an isolated Facebook post is going to have limited impact, but the more people see something done, the more normal it becomes. Breastfeeding to 1 year, or even to 6 months is not the norm in the UK so I think it's a good thing to have one week dedicated to raising awareness and visibility of something that would improve public health outcomes on a population level, thereby saving the NHS money.

I haven't seen any "self-congratulatory" posts or "boasting boasts" on Facebook during World Breastfeeding Week, and if you're not on social media then I'm not sure how you could have done either.

"The key to improving U.K. BF rates is definitely better practical, timely physical and emotional, in-person support. The standard of all this in UK postnatal wards is dreadful"

Definitely agree with this, however.

Support should be available for those who want to bf and acceptance from everyone that when a new mother says she wants to use formula - without insinuating that she is making a second rate choice.

@MitziK

The trouble is that not everybody is a highly intelligent, informed woman. Some are of average intelligence, some of lower; that's just how it is

And what? Just because someone might not have a university education and a high flying career doesn't mean they can't make the right decisions for themselves. So, what you actually meant was that some women aren't intelligent because they didn't make the same decision that you would have made. A very thinly veiled way of saying that mums who pick formula are stupid, really.

I'll put it blunty- if anything, formula feeding requires more 'intelligence' than breastfeeding. You have to ensure that you prepare bottles properly so your baby doesn't get sick, use the correct ratios of powder to boiling water, ensure the temperature is correct before feeding to baby, ensure that all bottles and apparatus are properly washed and sterilised, making sure you aren't overfeeding baby, the list goes on. Yet most formula feeding mums, regardless of their intelligence, can grasp doing their own research and learn by themselves how to do it properly and safely. They don't have the luxury of having consultants, midwives and health visitors who are 'allowed' to discuss and educate them on formula feeding. They're often left to fend for themselves and then judged for it by society.

This air of arrogance and superiority over breastfeeding needs to end, and it needs to end soon. You are not a better mother because you breastfeed your child. If you're stuck on a sofa for all hours of the day, constantly feeding and pumping (with sore nipples and mastisis) and a baby that won't latch or isn't gaining, I would be incredibly comfortable in saying that you will not be in a good place mentally. And poor mental health is a genuine detriment to how someone can be a good parent and partner. The positives of EBF do not outweigh the cons of anxiety, guilt, exhaustion and depression (if things aren't going to plan), no matter how much you try to manipulate it to.

We don't need shitty 'feminism' where one minute we're all about empowering women and body autonomy (you know, where women make their own decisions based on what they want to do with their own bodies), but that ends as soon as you decide you want to keep your baby. Then suddenly you have to become a slave to the cause, regardless of what you feel comfortable with. Women who choose to have c sections have been viewed as lazy for years and years (remember the adage 'to posh to push'?) Now, women who formula feed are viewed as essentially pouring poison down their infants throats by the martyrs of the breastfeeding world? Because that's exactly what they are.

Breastfeeding is a great achivement but it doesn't make you a better mother. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. And you can be proud of your own BF decision without infantilising and degrading the women who have chosen an alternative path.

Why on earth would someone thing they were a better mother because they bf? I’d think they were mad if that’s how they were coming up with their judgemental opinions.

@stretchedmarks 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 an excellent post!

I agree @stretchedmarks

Midwives and health professionals cant win.

If they tried to 'educate' women on breastfeeding, no doubt they would be accused of being pushy, or patronising.

If they don't, then they get accused of laziness & not advising people correctly.

How do you strike that balance? If a woman (let's just say of a lower educational level) is asked by the midwife how she wants to feed the baby and she says 'bottle feeding' then she has given her answer hasn't she? Should the midwives then say 'ah but have you considered breastfeeding, here are all the benefits...'

You cant please everyone. I think we need to aim for 'good enough' in these situations. Breastfeeding isnt so beneficial health wise that it warrants enormous spending or promotion.

@Parker231

Why on earth would someone thing they were a better mother because they bf? I’d think they were mad if that’s how they were coming up with their judgemental opinions.

Honestly, I'd say only a small percentage of breastfeeding mums feel this way. Most of us in real life have enough common sense to realise that as long as a baby is fed and thriving, it doesn't matter what way they're fed. And even if we don't ultimately agree with the other feeding method, we keep it to ourselves. Personally, as long as mum and baby are happy, I couldn't give two hoots where their milk came from.

It's the ones who are the diehard martyrs til the end that cause the problems. They're the ones who will make snide remarks. They're the ones who will comment on social media posts and 'call people out' for bottle feeding. The ones who start their preachings with 'why wouldn't you try?' and end them with 'I find it sad that they don't breastfeed their baby', with tonnes of 'my baby is drinking liquid gold' in between. It's clear that these women genuinely do believe they are of a higher level than other mums. And that is incredibly pathetic, really.

But, as I said, I completely agree that it's a small minority, and it applies across all areas of parenting, not just breast vs bottle:

baby wearing vs pram
sleeping in their cot vs co sleeping
c sections vs vaginal birth
water birth/home birth vs a highly medicated birth
no pain relief vs an epidural
baby led weaning vs spoon feeding
hand cooked and pureed meals vs baby food jars/pouches

Within these categories, most of us just do what's right for us, and if we don't like something, we keep it to ourselves. Which is great. But, as with the breast vs bottle debate, there will always be the odd few who have to shit on those who don't do the same as them. And we should ignore these people, of course. But parenting is so emotive, it is easy to get upset by even one or two comments. No one likes being made to feel like they're a sub par parent, which is why these discussions always get so angsty.

I just wish we'd all build each other up and accept that everyone does things differently. Most of us are great parents, afterall. But, that's a pipe dream!

Couldn't agree more with you Stretchedmarks. Very good post

@stretchedmarks No. Not at all. Which you would know if you'd actually taken the time and read and comprehend what I said.

What I said was that women need to have information provided to them in order to make a decision. The poster I replied to said she was very intelligent, which was why she knew best that FF was best for her. Not everybody is. So why does she, because she's 'smart' get to decide that women who aren't as smart as her aren't even given the information she had access to in order to make her choice? Apparently, she wants that denied to other women because it doesn't make her feel good.

By all means, feel superior because you can count scoops and put the kettle on, rather than get a tit out and plug the baby in.

I have no particular side in this. One kid was EBF for nine months (despite her father's jealousy), then we went through the process of discovering she was unable to tolerate any animal milk. Had I FF from birth, she'd have been worse off, particularly as the attitude we got was that we were just being difficult and formula was perfectly fine/I was making up problems because of guilt. The other was FF from 12 weeks. Bog standard formula, no problems.

The reason I didn't feel shit about it? Because I'd had all the information and was able to make an informed decision.

Don't come in all guns blazing without reading things properly. I said the information needs to be available to all, not just vaguely accessible if a Very Clever Woman knows it's out there somewhere to go looking for it.

@MitziK

women need to have information provided to them in order to make a decision.

They do! There are breastfeeding groups, books, lactation consultants, peer support workers, breastfeeding hotlines like La Leche League and the Breastfeeding Foundation, not to mention the midwives, antenatal classes, the support workers on antenatal wards... I mean the list is endless.

Anyway as I said above, if a midwife asked a woman how she intended to feed the baby and she said 'bottle' what do you reccomend then? Give her leaflets she probably wont read and will go in the bin? Try to persuade her to change her mind, and come across as pushy and patronising? How do you get the balance right?