‘I won’t be employing women with children again’

[Everhopefulhev]

AIBU in feeling really wound up by this comment?
I’ve just had to quit my new job as my childcare arrangement fell through which is shit for my employer because obviously they could do without having to find someone else. However, whilst talking to my current boss he said ‘I won’t be employing women with children again’ and told me not to take it personally or think he’s a dick for saying it.
Is this just an example of the problems women face in the workplace? Just because I didn’t work out for them they are disqualifying any further woman with a child?
I just find this type of thing infuriating.

@Devlesko Because women seem to go for these types and are happy to jump into the ex's shoes.

This is the crux of the issue. We’ll never have equality until women are more discerning about the men they procreate with, and have discussions around childcare and work impacts before conception.

Unfortunately, for a lot of women the biological urge to procreate is stronger than the requirement to find a decent man, and then they turn to Mumsnet wanting to know why the man won’t pay maintenance and how they should cope all alone. Of course there will be the occasional case of a strong marriage breaking down, but not the vast amount of “how can I get my baby daddy to pay” that we see.

OP have you tried Universal credit help? i fyou earn under 16k you get help with childcare costs upto 85%

just a thought?

even if you did 16 hours a week and put your child into childcare for 2 days, you are better off overall

best of luck - also single mum and i know how fricking hard it is x

I see both sides.

• hides behind sofa because you cannot say this on MN.

As everyone is aware this is illegal but be perfectly honest - do you blame him? I have read threads on here about women who have been offered a job and didn't know whether to tell them she is pregnant, I know people who have worked for the minimum time before having a year off maternity cover, go back for a few months and then be pregnant again. I also know someone who joined the civil service doing a job way below her level simply because the maternity terms are so good. This kind of examples - even thought they may be rare - do absolutely nothing to endear small companies to women of child bearing age.

It was a completley innapropriate thing to say! I feel for you OP my sister had to quit her job recently due to lack of childcare and being turned out when asking for flexible hours. Childcare is extortionate, I am lucky that I can work part time around my partners hours - I have no clue how we would manage if I were to get a full time job because we could not afford the childcare, and have nobody else to babysit. (Sadly my sister and i live too far apart and therefore can't help one another). On another note, not related to the OP's situation often men seem to have a hard time getting time off from their employers for childcare - when I was in hospital with sepsis my partners work (admittedly an all Male team) asked him why I couldn't look after them !. While on paper mothers and fathers are more equal, reality still needs to catch up.

Why is it always the woman’s fault?

Some of the responses here are ridiculous!

Ops ex boss makes a shitty sexist statement because she’s handed her notice in (because no-one ever leaves for a better job, to go travelling or long term sickness do they🙄)
and instead of people being disgusted that he’s suggesting something discriminatory and has refused to accommodate part time working its somehow all ops fault for choosing the wrong father so ending up a single parent.

Single mums can’t win really they’re expected to work full time but society in general aren’t supportive.

For all the other posters where women are supposedly taking the Micky with absences that’s a management problem. We have flexible working for all employees and funnily enough we don’t seem to have all the issues some posters have seen.

Op if it’s a large company I would contact head office and explain what your ex manager said and ask if that’s company policy now.

@Kaiserin

In arguably more civilised countries (e.g. Scandinavia), affordable childcare is, I think, provided by the state, in the same way that schooling is (and health care, etc.) In other word, it is treated as an essential public service, not a nice-to-have, optional extra.

If the British government was actually serious about lifting children out of poverty, by getting their parents in employment, it would make affordable & widely available childcare an absolute priority.

But I guess it's easier and cheaper to just have unenforceable equality laws.

True.

But one day someone will do the maths and realise that having half your population virtually excluded from the workplace is piss poor economics.especially if as a society you have spent huge amounts of money on educating and training that proportion of your workforce. We already face a situation where birth rates are falling while life expectation is rising. There is going to be a devastating mismatch between the financial contribution of a diminishing labour force and the fiscal demands of government spending. If successive governments continue to fail to utilise the working potential of half the population then our position as one of the world's wealthy , productive nations is looking precarious.

ACAS. Unfair dismissal. Although I would be tempted to ring him back and record it and say "When you said you wouldn't employ a woman with children -it was reall hurtful. etc "............
Op quit because her childcare let her down, don't be daft

While i agree he’s been a dick...

Men never quit due to childcare issues.

Childcare is still seen very much as a woman’s problem. See all the “i’m a sahm because my salary doesn’t cover childcare” threads.

IMO more employees should run childcare as a work benefit. The places I’ve worked with on site childcare the demand is huge. Then they needn’t worry about childcare issues, male or female.

We’ll never have equality until women are more discerning about the men they procreate with, and have discussions around childcare and work impacts before conception.

Unfortunately, for a lot of women the biological urge to procreate is stronger than the requirement to find a decent man, and then they turn to Mumsnet wanting to know why the man won’t pay maintenance and how they should cope all alone. Of course there will be the occasional case of a strong marriage breaking down, but not the vast amount of “how can I get my baby daddy to pay” that we see.

As everyone is aware this is illegal but be perfectly honest - do you blame him? I have read threads on here about women who have been offered a job and didn't know whether to tell them she is pregnant, I know people who have worked for the minimum time before having a year off maternity cover, go back for a few months and then be pregnant again. I also know someone who joined the civil service doing a job way below her level simply because the maternity terms are so good.

Fucking hell. Instead of analysis of the issues facing women in the world of paid work we have some ugly, unvarnished, old fashioned misogyny. Full marks for "baby daddy".

No mention of workplaces structured with the assumption that the workers have someone at home taking care of children for free.

No mention of how the state lets men who are unscrupulous get away with paying a pittance in child support.

All of that happens because regardless of the well known fact that women bear the babies in any given couple, regardless of the well known fact that babies and children exist, workplaces are structured to suit men who do not have childcare to worry about.

There are economies that buzz along very nicely yet still give generous paid parental leave and provide universal childcare for buttons.

This is because those sensible societies correctly understand that babies are necessary for economic growth in the future, are committed to making equality a reality, and therefore they see childcare is seen as a vital part of the infrastructure.

I blame him because he is part of the problem. He won't write to his MP and complain about the extortionate cost of childcare. He won't complain about unaffordable maternity leave. He won't advocate for true equality for women. He will instead mutter about lack of reliability and if he is as good as his word he will hire employees from half of the available pool.

I knew a boss like that who took on a 50+ years female employee because she wouldn't get pregnant and take maternity leave.

Then she had to get a hysterectomy and needed 2 months off work.

Karma, boss

If this is a huge corporate there absolutely would have been some sort of solution that wasn't as drastic as them losing OP completely. However, relying on free family childcare can unfortunately go wrong in this way as it means you're basically earning under what it costs to work. But what the manager said was very inappropriate. We all no doubt think inappropriate things from time to time at work. Only idiots actually utter them!

12dpo

where women are supposedly taking the Micky with absences that’s a management problem

I agree completely - except that many managers simply don't want to bother with the howls of outrage, the endless paperwork and the investment of time involved in dealing with someone taking the Mick. They never did want it and they certainly don't want it in these more difficult times, so they avoid the issue by dodging the employment of anyone who seems likely to have children

I am of course not suggesting this is right - only that it is

@Everhopefulhev I understand.
I also recently had to quit my full time employment in the middle of lockdown as my husband had to go back to work (merchant navy therefore 3 month contract, if we’re lucky!).
No nursery and no grandparents (shielding) meant I was stuck. I could not work from home 5 days a week 9-5 and be primary caregiver to my 3 year old.
Only option I was given was “once you’re done with your day with your daughter you can work for us at night”. 🙄🤦🏼‍♀️

@namechangenumber204

As everyone is aware this is illegal but be perfectly honest - do you blame him? I have read threads on here about women who have been offered a job and didn't know whether to tell them she is pregnant, I know people who have worked for the minimum time before having a year off maternity cover, go back for a few months and then be pregnant again. I also know someone who joined the civil service doing a job way below her level simply because the maternity terms are so good. This kind of examples - even thought they may be rare - do absolutely nothing to endear small companies to women of child bearing age.

I know women who do this as well.

There is more than one women out there who plan pregnancies around maternity leave. They play the system like in all walks of financial life. There is always someone who will know the game and do it because it's legal.

I don't really know what the answer is. But I'm sure we'll find out come brexit.

I'm sorry for your troubles OP. It does suck quite a lot. I'm just glad I have a job outside of school hours so don't need childcare.

Back when I worked, dh used to say 'but I cant miss work,' now he says when he thinks of it i should have told him to eff off. He h as s a lot of women working with him now and he says he's always telling them the dad needs to take some of the slack (and cringing cos he did the same). Anyyime the kids were sick I'd ring in and the first few times my boss(man) would even ask after them, try to do what he could to have me not have to take it as a day, etc, by the end (before I finally quit after driving an hour in the snow to get there and was told the creche was closing early due to their electricity going) he'd go quiet, and say 'how long do you think they'll be this time'. (Him and the wife, both very high up in the company, went on to have 4 kids and I always wonder how their conversations went on sick days)

Sorry, typed on a phone without editing, sorry!

@mathanxiety

We’ll never have equality until women are more discerning about the men they procreate with, and have discussions around childcare and work impacts before conception.

Unfortunately, for a lot of women the biological urge to procreate is stronger than the requirement to find a decent man, and then they turn to Mumsnet wanting to know why the man won’t pay maintenance and how they should cope all alone. Of course there will be the occasional case of a strong marriage breaking down, but not the vast amount of “how can I get my baby daddy to pay” that we see.

As everyone is aware this is illegal but be perfectly honest - do you blame him? I have read threads on here about women who have been offered a job and didn't know whether to tell them she is pregnant, I know people who have worked for the minimum time before having a year off maternity cover, go back for a few months and then be pregnant again. I also know someone who joined the civil service doing a job way below her level simply because the maternity terms are so good.

Fucking hell. Instead of analysis of the issues facing women in the world of paid work we have some ugly, unvarnished, old fashioned misogyny. Full marks for "baby daddy".

No mention of workplaces structured with the assumption that the workers have someone at home taking care of children for free.

No mention of how the state lets men who are unscrupulous get away with paying a pittance in child support.

All of that happens because regardless of the well known fact that women bear the babies in any given couple, regardless of the well known fact that babies and children exist, workplaces are structured to suit men who do not have childcare to worry about.

There are economies that buzz along very nicely yet still give generous paid parental leave and provide universal childcare for buttons.

This is because those sensible societies correctly understand that babies are necessary for economic growth in the future, are committed to making equality a reality, and therefore they see childcare is seen as a vital part of the infrastructure.

I blame him because he is part of the problem. He won't write to his MP and complain about the extortionate cost of childcare. He won't complain about unaffordable maternity leave. He won't advocate for true equality for women. He will instead mutter about lack of reliability and if he is as good as his word he will hire employees from half of the available pool.

You cannot compare the UK to a country like, say, Norway. Norway is an extremely rich country (result of its vast natural resources) that is rapidly losing residents. It's immigration has seen a 4.8% decrease since 2010, it's expat rate a 4.3% increase in the same time period. It's birthrate is below replacement rates by a fair bit. In other words, it's a dying country that cannot even pay people to remain there. The UK is the stark opposite in every single way. It's not resource rich, people move in but don't tend to move out, and the birthrate is still above the replacement rate. Offering what Norway offers would literally bankrupt the country within a year.

It’s utterly shit, and he absolutely should not have said that.

But it’s an attitude I’ve come across so often. The previous industry that I worked in was very male-dominated, and it was well known that as a woman under 45 you took off wedding/engagement rings and didn’t mention your family at all at interviews, or it seriously harmed your chances. The general assumption was that if you were married you’d either have kids or were likely to have kids relatively soon - so you’d be off on maternity leave and/or end up taking last-minute time off for sick kids/lack of childcare etc.

To me the answers are firstly better availability and cost of childcare. We need people to have children (& dwindling birth rates are a societal concern). Therefore people should be supported in this. And secondly, more men need to do their share of childcare, including time off for sick kids and flexible working to accommodate childcare needs.

As for women who “play the system”, I feel about this the same way I feel about people going on about people cheating the benefit system- we shouldn’t punish the majority because there’s a minority who cheat. Just accept there will always be people who’ll take the piss. People who genuinely need the accommodation/assistance shouldn’t be the ones who lose out.

@maddiemookins16mum

I see both sides.

• hides behind sofa because you cannot say this on MN.

Me too. I'm also a single mum by choice and my opinion will be even less popular- I'm quite happy for the dads to take a back seat with opinions because that means they take a backseat to decisions-schools, medical care etc. I get the say in my child's life about that!

On your first, that is the school's fault and not the mother's, no? It's an example of entrenched sexism and assumptions about roles
One of the most ridiculous statements on here.
You are asked for 2 emergency contact numbers.
We gave DH's first and my mum's as a second number as I wasn't in a position at work to drop everything and go but DH could.
People need to think and be a bit more smart when they give their numbers out as an emergency contact.

Just accept there will always be people who’ll take the piss. People who genuinely need the accommodation/assistance shouldn’t be the ones who lose out

Once again I agree, but playing devil's advocate for a moment, how's a recruiter to tell the difference at interview?

Even if we went back to the bad old days when they could quiz women about family plans they'll only say what the employer wants to hear, and of course nobody's going to say "Pisstaker? I certainly am - when can I start?"

Please write to the HR department and make his comments known.

Tell them that paying a salary that does not cover childcare is detrimental to women to whom the majority of childcare responsibility falls. Tell them that the current situation will see thousands of women being forced to leave their jobs due to childcare issues like yours or like schools not allowing childminders to pick children up, wrap around care options not being open, holiday clubs being suspended. Tell them at least 5 times in the email that women will bear the brunt of the impact of COVID and it will have a knock on effect on the next generation, many if whom will be pushed below the poverty line if their sole parent is unable to work. Tell them that 90% of the 1.8 million single parent households in the UK are headed up by women. Tell them that the current childcare situation will not just affect single mothers but will affect many women and their children. Tell them that you know they are not obliged to take responsibility for your childcare challenges but that without support, women will suffer disproportionately and that as a large organisation, they have a great voice and more ability to so something about it.

I am so so sorry that you are in this situation and that your ex manager didn't have the intelligence to see that this is an issue that will cause significant harm to women and to keep his bloody patriarchal, male privilege mouth shut, if he wasnt prepared to do anything to help.

It's popular on MN to point out Scandinavian countries as some beacon to emulate on issues like this, but it is always ignored when it comes to NHS/Benefit reform etc.

Just cherry picking a part and pretending the UK is evil because we do not follow them is very simplistic, it usually becomes even more simplistic when the claims of tax big businesses more is how we can just offer more without cutting back in other areas.