‘I won’t be employing women with children again’

[Everhopefulhev]

AIBU in feeling really wound up by this comment?
I’ve just had to quit my new job as my childcare arrangement fell through which is shit for my employer because obviously they could do without having to find someone else. However, whilst talking to my current boss he said ‘I won’t be employing women with children again’ and told me not to take it personally or think he’s a dick for saying it.
Is this just an example of the problems women face in the workplace? Just because I didn’t work out for them they are disqualifying any further woman with a child?
I just find this type of thing infuriating.

I think I got my current job as the Head was fed up with women going off on maternity leave. The last few female teachers he has recruited have been mid 40s to mid 50s.

During lockdown two of my female friends have secured jobs, the first being single and childless and the second divorced with adult children. Both early 50s and both saying pick me as I have no childcare issues, school pickups or school holidays to worry about.

This attitude is pretty standard for places like Cornwall, unfortunately.

He shouldn't have said that to you but I think many employers think this.i am not an employer and have never had my own business etc, but I think if I did, I also wouldn't employ someone with young children. It is nearly always the woman that has to take time off for kids illness, school events, school closures etc.
It is rubbish and very unfair to women but it's just how it is unfortunately

@SimonJT but the form didn’t ask what your son calls her, it asked her relationship to him? In your position I’d have put “father’s cousin, known to child as “Aunt x”

@ivfdreaming

we all know deep down what our partners are like - it's rare they hide their true colours to the extent it's such a surprise after children come along

I cannot believe you wrote this. You're either goady or deluded.

Many many many women, myself included, found ourselves in situations where our husbands revealed hitherto unknown sides of themselves after having children.

It's a story as old as time & well recognised by therapists as a pivotal time in relationships & how they can become abusive.

@VodselForDinner

You said they decided to get pregnant at the same time. You think it was planned

You’re being deliberately obtuse.

Just because three individuals planned to do something at the same time doesn’t mean they planned to do it in cahoots with each other.

You and I both decided to use MN this evening, but we didn’t plan it together.

Well perhaps they should have got together and worked out a rota.

Your meaning was crystal clear BTW.

[quote CheetasOnFajitas]@SimonJT but the form didn’t ask what your son calls her, it asked her relationship to him? In your position I’d have put “father’s cousin, known to child as “Aunt x”[/quote]
The online form you use to provide contact details doesn’t have that option. The fact that reception can’t manage to call the correct person suggests they would be unlikely to call her Aunt x when telling my son who is collecting him if that was an option.

Even if it was an option I would still click aunt, just as I would click father rather than adoptive father or uncle.

How very unprofessional of your (ex) boss.
How awful some of these comments on here are.
Some hirers/bosses are going to have their nicely thought out plans blown though as this is 2020 and men can have babies too

That’s horrible OP but not surprising unfortunately. I’m lucky that my employers are very flexible when it comes to childcare/emergency leave etc, I even got a promotion and pay rise at around 20 weeks pregnant with DC2 last year despite being ‘default’ parent due to DP working away. I WFH and other than a few meetings each week could realistically work outside the normal 9-5 as my role doesn’t require much engagement with other people. My boss tracks output rather than hours. On the flip side they know that to employ someone else with my skills and experience they would need to pay them at least 30% more. They know that because they are very flexible I’m unlikely to leave until my DC are much older. Due to the nature of my role I sometimes need to log on and do emergency work on weekend evenings and they know that I will do this without complaint. Personally I think that more than makes up for my ‘piss-taking’ and I’m glad my employers recognise this.

*Worstyear2020
Yes it is very bad for us parents. My old boss said to me "don't have any more children" when i returned from maternity leave. Funny this seems to only effect woman still.

Fuck that.

Years ago I had a female boss when I returned from having a horrendous m/c and a hospital D&C, she said to me "I am so relieved you lost it, I didn't know what I would have done if you had to have gone on maternity etc" - I never said a word, I was in shock.*

This is severely abhorrent, I hope you both put in a complaint.

I did not “take the piss” with my holidays, I simply made sure I got in with my requests first as it was important (I realise that this might not work with other companies)

It’s not always the case that working mums are a burden to be avoided.
I was at my firm for quite a number of years before I fell pregnant, and also a lot of years afterwards.
I was there much longer than people who left but not to have children, therefore I did more of the “shitty holidays left over” etc than them too.
On my working days, the father was responsible for childcare (I realise this is not possible for everyone) so I would not be leaving early/arriving late/having to rush off due to a sick child.
I think they got more than their money’s worth from me, even with maternity leave.

The school did have our numbers down for the appropriate days, didn’t stop them calling the wrong person though.

To the person saying about how deep down you know your partner is an arse so it shouldn’t come as any surprise, I just hope you don’t have to eat your words because of personal experience.

Whilst I do have sympathy for small businesses, although they should have accounted for this in contingency plans, I have way more sympathy for woman having to put up with this shit and the ones with dickhead partners (who they “let” get away with this dickery???!!!) you have even more of my sympathy and my anger is firmly placed at their door

I’ve just watched a Call the Midwife episode where a pregnant, unmarried teacher was dismissed for being both unmarried and pregnant in 1961. I’m sure a few people would like us to return to those days.

It seems some people think working women shouldn’t have children.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-53409521

“ Who pays tax in a massively aged world? Who pays for healthcare for the elderly? Who looks after the elderly? Will people still be able to retire from work?”

*The fact is it’s a vicious circle. The pay gap exists because it’s always women who take time off, go part time, become sahp. Leaving men to never have to take time off- so they get promoted and earn more, so the women earn less and go pt or give up work...so employers give men a hard time for taking time for child reasons because there’s always a woman to pick up the slack.

For it to change employers need to expect the same from men and women. Men need to step up and insist employers accommodate, women need to stop with the “my salary doesn’t cover childcare” thinking. It’s a joint cost, and it might not in the short term, but long term you’re always better off working.*
Totally agree

@user1487194234 and an extension of that is mandated compulsory shared maternity leave, where men have to use x amount of leave or the couple losses it. I think this would help with internal family dynamics where the woman (often) does a lot or all of the care of a small baby meaning the father struggles to sooth, or lack confidence in managing small babies.

Obviously this only applies to a partnered relationship and doesn't benefit single parents directly, but the knock on effects might.

None of that takes away from the fact that the OP is in a pretty shitty position of having to quit her job, reducing the income of herself and her daughter due to lack of childcare, and while her ex boss may feel frustrated, he should have shut the hell up and realise that all he has to do is hire another person and the OP's situation is much more of a real life PIA that his inconvenience.

Somebody mentioned much earlier on the thread about her aunt moving in with them so they can split childcare three ways. Is this a potential future mechanism (not for the OP, but for society in general) of co-oping childcare with neighbours/friends/family?

This is what is wrong with our society! While many women would like to have a family and continue with their Career .As soon as the thorny issue of Childcare problems arises , Some employers throw their hands up in horror ,and cant seem to make even the smallest compromise that may help their trained staff to stay in their job! How can we have any sort of equality when this is the case? Many married women with good prospects give up as its too hard to "juggle " everything ,making them at the mercy of their husbands even though our mothers fought for us for equal pay 50 odd years ago!

I am stunned by some of these comments on here about women "choosing" feckless idiots to procreate with, Or how they "just knew" their friend DH was a Dickhead,
Women should be more "choosy!" I mean WTF! I know several friends who have got divorced and ex has turned out toxic ,could never have seen it coming though!Even if I had ,what woman in love with her DP would take any notice anyway!

*@ivfdreaming

we all know deep down what our partners are like - it's rare they hide their true colours to the extent it's such a surprise after children come along*

I'm a single mum of three and seriously had no idea. My ex was great with childcare while I was at work. Sadly I didn't have a clue that he was a child abuser. As far as work goes I've managed by using clubs and begging people to watch them when I can't find childcare but I understand that not many people have that support network.

but women who always take full responsibility for childcare, rather than seeing it as an equal responsibility with the father are a pain as employees.

How about MEN who DON'T take responsibility for childcare are impacting women's work lives?!

The govt could also do a LOT more to "encourage" fathers to take more responsibility for childcare

Thousands of other men are doing similar. Why do we as a society tolerate this?

Patriarchal society - and were currently being "led" by a deadbeat dad too!!

You should have told your ex partner to stump up the extra cost haha haha aye right!

When we can't even get maintenance properly enforced?!

It's not unfair dismissal when she QUIT err yes it can be! If an employer acts illegally in such a way as it's impossible for an employee to stay in the job and quits it can be constructive dismissal. It's hard to prove but it exists legally

How do bosses feel about employing MEN with children? Oh, that's right, it never comes up

Exactly!

How on earth does an employer / potential employer know what religion you are? some schools or colleges are catholic, some addresses are! I was raised Catholic but as I was an army brat I didn't go catholic school. But my cousins did and it's very much been an issue for the female ones! Where I live is a largely catholic area and so certain streets are "known" for only catholic people living there which an employer with local knowledge would be tuned into.

@mathanxiety excellent post yesterday at 1839

I've been asked in interviews about my childcare arrangements (inc before I had dc I suspect to try and trip me up!), and when I was planning on having more dc (I wasn't because I can't) and when ex had dd...

All illegal and shitty questions! And this was not way back when this was this century, I even got asked the last time I was job hunting and I was 45 by that point!

Most of this could be avoided if we took an approach to childcare like they do in Iceland how does it work in Iceland @Iwalkinmyclothing ?

And God help you if you are trying to get a job with hours outside the 9-5! this is very much the issue I had as a working single mum. Couldn't work outside mon-fri 9-5 as no childcare available. I hold 2 degrees and have a good employment record but had to take lower paid less senior roles because of the hours situation.

Personally I think childcare costs should be included in maintenance arrangements but as we (as a country) seem bloody incapable of even getting the bare min out of absent fathers that's fucking pie in the sky at the moment!

It's the fault of whichever parent filled in the form and put the mother's phone number as the first emergency contact.

Not necessarily. My brother was always the first contact on his eldests forms as his ex has died and he has full custody now, yet the school would repeatedly call his then partner and later wife first! Even though they knew the situation.

Unless and until the govt steps up and puts in place decent policies and infrastructure to support working mothers this inequality will continue.

It's even more prevalent when it's an employers market as it very much is at the moment.

Govt also doing sod all, despite acknowledging a likely deep recession due to cv, to CREATE jobs or even maintain the current ones, loads of businesses either going under or cutting workforce drastically - very much reminiscent of the mid 80's

@dottiedodah

This is what is wrong with our society! While many women would like to have a family and continue with their Career .As soon as the thorny issue of Childcare problems arises , Some employers throw their hands up in horror ,and cant seem to make even the smallest compromise that may help their trained staff to stay in their job! How can we have any sort of equality when this is the case? Many married women with good prospects give up as its too hard to "juggle " everything ,making them at the mercy of their husbands even though our mothers fought for us for equal pay 50 odd years ago!

The issue is many women want to be martyrs and juggle everything

I would be a rich woman if I had a £1 for every woman who posted on the pregnancy or child care boards about how they wanted to be their child's main care givers. Some are even annoyed when their husbands and partners want to take the child for the day!

Women shouldn't be the only people doing the child care, however for many that's how they like it and their husbands don't get a look in.

If women want equality we need to understand that means actually losing some control and time with our children if we want true equality, and for many that's a line too far.

Slightly off topic but in relation to calling from school in an emergency, if a phone isn't answered because of a very big and important job then school calls contact number 2 immediately, of course. Just saying!

I know plenty of women who have never had these problems.
They either didn't have kids or their work was placed higher than the dh's.
It's not a societal problem if a woman saddles herself with a man who won't pull his weight or treat his wifes career as important as his.
When you have kids you do make sacrifices, but it's supposed to be both of you, not just the woman.
Nothing will change until women set their bar a bit higher, are prepared to live on less so their high earning dh can cut down, and they demand equality in their relationships. Some women are living in the 1950's but expecting society/ employers to take the hit.

Unless and until the govt steps up and puts in place decent policies and infrastructure to support working mothers this inequality will continue.

Please tell me you are having a laugh, what policies would they be.
Go home when you like and expect colleagues to do your work, lol.

Please tell me you are having a laugh, what policies would they be.
Go home when you like and expect colleagues to do your work, lol.

Several people in this thread have made some perfectly sensible suggestions about what the government can and should do to level the playing field and encourage fathers to step up and do their bit. Because we have seen that without this push companies do fuck all and women are caught in the never ending spiral of income inequality, lack of pension etc etc. The assumption should always be 50/50 responsibility.

Understand your frustration but what if you are frequently let down with child care issues and in turn let your employer down? Would you still expect to be paid even if you would not be contributing to the business income stream? A small company could go out of business if its employees are not reliable.

When I was pregnant with my first and was arranging maternity with my manager he said he’d never employ a woman of childbearing age again