First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

@serenada Our class system is toxic too. We like to pretend we’re egalitarian but look at the present cabinet. It’s dominated by the sons of the rich and powerful.

I think things like austerity and the withdrawal of university maintenance loans are going to exacerbate this, so we’ll actually be going backwards.

The difference between wrongly profiled as a White British person and wrongly profiled as a foreigner, especially one of BAME origin, is that it may materially affect the latter’s treatment in a health or educational or employment setting.
I’m not sure whether being wrongly profiled as working class because of my accent has actually done me any damage, other than to my pride.

Xenia, well I am from the Soviet bloc. Thing is, art, education used to be cheap. Material wealth was expensive. So going to see a ballet wasn't "classy", but having a nice car totally was. Travel was another thing - something you should aspire to do as much as possible. But here in England people take pride of never having visited London.

@breadcakebiscuits

Sunak's parents were a doctor and chemist, no?

I accept that in working class backgrounds there are lots of unacknowledged barriers but to me, one of the most negative and insidious ideas that holds people back, is this sense that success is dependant on class.

Class is a social construct, originally a way of identifying people in sociology and, as individuals we mustn't let those things define us. They can make things easier or harder, admittedly, but if the core infrastructure is maintained, we will all progress.

It is possible.

@serenada I think most of us would say a doctor and a chemist were rich. Certainly rich enough to support their son at a school that costs £40k a year (unless he was a Scholar, in which case it would be merely half that).

I also agree with @maurya that the narrative - probably his own arc, as well as the story in the press - would be quite different if he’d not attended such an elite school and university.

In my previous workplace I was met with opinions like "who do you think you are" for things like - a holiday in Paris or reading books as a hobby. And I was like... what? Libraries are free, and Paris isn't that much more expensive than Benidorm. Also "how can you possibly afford that" - well, I have internet connection... all what it takes

@CatsArePeopleToo

In my previous workplace I was met with opinions like "who do you think you are" for things like - a holiday in Paris or reading books as a hobby. And I was like... what? Libraries are free, and Paris isn't that much more expensive than Benidorm. Also "how can you possibly afford that" - well, I have internet connection... all what it takes

Oh my god, sadly, yes. And mention foreign (your own) food...

I hear you @CatsArePeopleToo. Grew up in a place where there was really low aspiration and expectations, especially for girls, but with a shiny veneer of affluence and respectability.

Wanting to “better yourself” was considered abominable. You see the same in the way the tabloid press go for Carole Middleton and the Duchess of Cambridge and all that nonsense about being called the Wisteria Sisters at school.

I’m sorry for hijacking your thread @classmisfit but thank you for starting such an interesting one.

Don't get me started on food... I managed to appall people too many times

@CatsArePeopleToo

Don't get me started on food... I managed to appall people too many times

Not that difficult tbh😁 I horrified people by munching on raw kohlrabi as a snack. 😂

As a previous poster suggested, I think the inability of many British people to read the class of a foreigner is revealing of their own ignorance and lack of imagination. Of course a newcomer will not be sensitive to, or display the class markers that are understood here. But failing to account for that shows real parochialism. I've noticed this especially with refugee families. Even kind hearted local people seem to think, poor people coming from 'third world' war zones, maybe we can help them, they could get work in a shop (or as OP in childcare) never mind that they may be highly qualified professionals from wealthy backgrounds. This was shown nicely in the comedy on C4, Home. I think the guy on there said something like 'I used to worry about not being able to get the right sort of hummus....'

Before I came here, I didn't know that simple things like olives or capers were offensive if you're "working class"... and smoked ribs... I won't forget people's faces - they loved them, but first reaction was WTAF

@CatsArePeopleToo

simple things like olives or capers were offensive if you're "working class"...

Someones winding you up. That sentence alone is just ridiculous.

It's not "offensive" as a swear word. It's more like "what are you eating? Pretending to be MC, aren't we..." Thing.
Apparently eating various salads for lunch every day is that too ...🤷🏻

@breadcakebiscuits

@serenada I think most of us would say a doctor and a chemist were rich. Certainly rich enough to support their son at a school that costs £40k a year (unless he was a Scholar, in which case it would be merely half that).

I also agree with @maurya that the narrative - probably his own arc, as well as the story in the press - would be quite different if he’d not attended such an elite school and university.

I have to disagree with both these points. £40 K a year ifees is not rich (and I thought he was a scholar) compared to many of the students there.

The narrative would have been different had he been a Labour MP.

Someones winding you up. That sentence alone is just ridiculous.
I thought so too. But packed lunches at work were very much judged

@serenada it’s all relative though, no? My father was a civil servant and his final salary was less than Rishi’s school fees, although I realise that was twenty years ago and we may not be comparing like-for-like.

Food snobbery is definitely a thing in England.

@CatsArePeopleToo

Before I came here, I didn't know that simple things like olives or capers were offensive if you're "working class"... and smoked ribs... I won't forget people's faces - they loved them, but first reaction was WTAF

So you don’t get W/C Brits who have, say lived in Italy (like my dad)? Mind you he couldn’t stand olives.

@breadcakebiscuits

Food snobbery is completely a thing. I'd say an awful lot of it from w/c people is a response to how they have been spoken to by well meaning m/c. It is also a complete power play and designed to humiliate and has gone on for a very long time

I would say the real problem in w/c communities (and I am struggling to understand where people are eating if they interact with w/c people at dinner time but then are surprised that those same people assume commonality with them,) is access to good quality food. The difference in food for children in private and faith schools is stark when compared to the state schools I have worked in.

Shockingly different. I also worked for a while in an isolated place with a very poor staff canteen - but I have learned from living with so many different people that it cannot be simplified so easily. There is the stuff we see people eating that is healthy, fresh and homemade but that same person could easily be taking drugs at the weekend, knocking back a couple of wines each night or binging at home

I come from.money. however I was born and raised in Latin America people.uaually think that the only reason I'm wealthy is because my family must be involved in the drug trade.

@Fressia123

That only reflects the kind of people you are with - absolutely nothing to do with the larger, British populace.

Well I don't know. People have sneered at me (just like the PPs coming from Eastern Europe). I'm more educated and come from traditional "posher" background. But people can't seem to think that's possible from a) a third world country b) someone with a heavy American accent.

I'm getting a bit fed up now. I think whoever said upthread that the person complaining was annoyed because her perceived poshness wasn't recognised was spot on.

You are all reading so much in to stuff when the people who have slighted you were probably just going about their own business with their own concerns. has it occurred to you all that perhaps their cultural upbringing may indicate that they respond in a different way to different classes or that perhaps they also have money, titles,etc that you are not paying social etiquette to?

Life is too short , guys - it really is. So much of this stuff is our own insecurities about status projevcted outwards. As pp have said, if you are secure in yourself you don't care about these things. And that is not dismissing your experiences but rather sharing mine with you (also not w/c, also from immigrant parents).

So many people are playing power politics rather than focusing on the job at hand - so many trying to reposition themselves at the expense of others. it's not new, it has always gone on but it is superficial. If you haven't learned that as an adult, then you are not in a position to judge them.

I’m sorry for hijacking your thread@classmisfitbut thank you for starting such an interesting one.
Not at all! I am actually fascinated by how different experiences are, depending on the country of origin. I am also from behind the iron curtain, as many PPs.

I think whoever said upthread that the person complaining was annoyed because her perceived poshness wasn't recognised was spot on.
If this is about me, I wasn't complaining and I definitely don't perceive myself as "posh" - not because of self-doubt, but rather because it is a very British definition, completely irrelevant to my background and upbringing.
I genuinely wanted to hear opinions. So - for example - you meet a "foreign" school mum, an "immigrant" and not an "expat" as defined previously on the thread. Heavy accent and all. She tells you during the chat over a coffee that she is in between jobs at the moment. How do you choose how to respond?
Because I seem to get "hey, my cleaner has just left, are you interested?" quite a lot, and started this thread after one of such moments. It is usually driven by a genuine friendliness and a desire to help, but also means that I am unknowingly sending some non-verbal signals according to the British social code, and I was interested in what they could be.

If the explanation is easy as my extra fifteen kilos or unfashionable clothes, it is relatively easy to fix.