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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

First generation immigrants vs British class system

307 replies

classmisfit · 01/08/2020 11:45

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

OP posts:
The80sweregreat · 02/08/2020 10:24

Class exists and always will do.
The old saying ' it's not what you know but who you know' is also true.
If you have rich parents with ' connections' your fine. It's always been the same and nobody will convince me otherwise.

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 02/08/2020 13:50

I think british class system is sort of values based and quite tricky to pin down really.

Also the reality is 90% of Brits these days are probably some sort of vague lower middle class so it really doesnt matter any more.

Fressia123 · 02/08/2020 13:57

I would like to know this myself. I'm an immigrant (although I prefer the word expat as I'll move one day) .

I only went to private schools had a live in nanny, maid and gardener/handy man. Have a master's, speak several languages, etc... Some people call me a snob but in the grand scheme of things I live a fairly modest life here. In fact my life was very much downgraded when I moved to the UK and why I'll look into moving back once my children go to uni.

Bluemoooon · 02/08/2020 13:58

I think having a big capital city like London doesn't help - if you speak wiv a bit of a cockney accent then it's faaaaine you'll get employed there, work in media but so many other accents are not represented AT ALL.
It's not just racism we have a problem with in Britain.

taraRoo · 02/08/2020 14:07

Why do people do this? Who cares? It's very English and judgemental. I'm Scottish and because of my accent people ask me ridiculous questions like 'were you the first in your family to go to uni...?' Or 'i assume your family worked in the shipyards?' Wtf??? My dad was a partner in a global property company thank you and actually who cares what he did or what social class you think I belong too??

maurya · 02/08/2020 14:20

I am a first generation immigrant. I’m Indian, a scion of the Himalayan Brahmin Zamindari, which means nothing to most people, but really speaks volumes to a fifth of the world’s population.

However, I grew up in middle-middle class circumstances in an economically and educationally deprived part of the UK because my father is a doctor. If you have ever seen ‘The Indian Doctor’ on the BBC you’ll have some idea of the milieu in which I grew up. Ironically my parents were/are socialists so my siblings and I attended mostly state schools and we lived in a very modest house (because my parents had already inherited several very large and impractical ‘status’ houses in India). This meant that nobody has ever known where to ‘place’ my family socially in England.

For the most part, our experience of living here has been hugely positive for ideological and personal reasons if not economic and social reasons. I have encountered racism but as a product of my background have chosen to exercise metta-bhavana (Google it) rather than respond to it. (Since the BLM debate erupted I am re-thinking this passivity).

Anyway, I could write a book on this subject (in fact one day I probably will, because I’m a literary and social historian by training and work with demographics and ethnographics professionally). But what I will say is that Brits, other than those who are upper class themselves, don’t realise that people who are not white can also be posh.

I very much conform to the ‘posh person’ stereotype peddled on Mumsnet and telly: I’m scruffy, my house is scruffy, my car is scruffy, I can ride a horse and parse a sentence in more than one Classical language, I have loyal ‘staff’ who have been with me for years. But because I’m not white, and even though I sound like Princess Anne, I am constantly mistaken for my housekeeper (who is white non-British) or my nanny (who is white British).

Like many genuinely ‘posh people’, I used to think this was funny rather than mortifying, and would often take pains to rescue the person who’d made the mistake of inaccurate unconscious bias from their embarrassment.

However, as my DC has got older and developed some complex health and educational needs, I have realised that their needs are actually underserved because of these wrong assumptions.

I am now becoming increasingly obnoxious where required, with the necessary results, and I’m also embarrassed to say I have embraced some of the (to my mind) first generation upper middle class vulgarity of my white British husband and his family.

I’ve upgraded my appearance with new clothes and time-consuming personal grooming, started wearing the jewellery that previously lived in the safe, and made over my house so that it’s more obviously the home of someone monied.

As a result of my upbringing I cringe about the ostentation of it all, but I had to do it because I’m not willing to compromise my DC’s life chances just because of my ingrained (and obviously wrong in their own way) Brahmin assumptions of superiority.

Class snobbery is an intrinsic part of British culture and my liminal status within it actually enables me to play it to my advantage as I know the ‘rules’, and in both cultures. My in-laws are very adroit about projecting their poshness with their smart house, and children’s and grandchildren’s smart schools, but the moment they grumble about their cleaner or lose their shit about something domestic and inconsequential, their rather humbler origins are displayed. In fact this has been my whole experience of ‘posh people’ and snobbery in the UK: most of these people are the descendants of petit-bourgeoisie who have re-invented themselves as county stalwarts, but whose snobbery is a direct result of their own class insecurities.

I do think it’s not quite right to assume unconscious bias or profiling is automatically the result of racism or xenophobia. It’s just as likely to be mere ignorance, but no less dangerous because of it. One of my potentially most dangerous experiences was at the hands of my white British GP, who is married to a British-born Asian doctor, but who clearly thought I suffered from problems of education or poverty simply because of my skin colour and geographical origin. (I enjoyed pointing out that my family didn’t merely hail from that area, but actually owned most of it, and that although I don’t have a professional job title my education would almost certainly trump his).

Finally, regarding the speculation about Rishi Sunak - he’s middle-middle class, as are his parents and grandparents. His wife is the daughter of a billionaire, but her family, too, are middle-middle. They spend their family money sponsoring healthcare charities rather than buying up shooting estates. He went to Winchester because it was the closest academic school to where he grew up. If he’d grown up elsewhere it would have been somewhere like Bradford Grammar School, which is just as academic, but leads to a very different profile.

Procne · 02/08/2020 14:33

I’m also embarrassed to say I have embraced some of the (to my mind) first generation upper middle class vulgarity of my white British husband and his family.

My in-laws are very adroit about projecting their poshness with their smart house, and children’s and grandchildren’s smart schools, but the moment they grumble about their cleaner or lose their shit about something domestic and inconsequential, their rather humbler origins are displayed. In fact this has been my whole experience of ‘posh people’ and snobbery in the UK: most of these people are the descendants of petit-bourgeoisie who have re-invented themselves as county stalwarts, but whose snobbery is a direct result of their own class insecurities.

Gosh, how dreadful for you that you had to marry down, and into a family which so ill disguises its humble origins in not exhibiting the appropriate level of sang-froid in an 'inconsequential' domestic crisis. Perhaps they should take lessons from you in how to display aristocratic indifference? Or borrow your loyal family retainers when their disloyal cleaners go AWOL? Hmm

SerenityNowwwww · 02/08/2020 14:40

I think you just know some guys. They are international btw...

SerenityNowwwww · 02/08/2020 14:41

Gits not guys. Dumb autocorrect...

SchrodingersImmigrant · 02/08/2020 14:57

I feel like some of the things mentioned on here are more racism rather than class. Bloody horrible

Xenia · 02/08/2020 14:59

maurya, I think we do realise you do not have to be white to be posh in the UK. Rishi Sunak is and Priti Patel is not. Indeed the Queen's husband is Greek etc. It has never really been about colour in the UK. I think the US more had the WASP thing - white anglo saxon protestant but not the UK.

(By the way anyone wanting to find something new to watch on Netflix try the series about Indian matchmaking which is very good; slightly off topic for this thread)

CatsArePeopleToo · 02/08/2020 15:04

I'm an immigrant. What I noticed is that British "class" markers are very different from where i came from. For example going to theatre or classical music concerts wasn't by far "posh" in my world.

maurya · 02/08/2020 15:06

@Procne having seen some of your posts elsewhere I think have touched a nerve. Snobbery reversed Grin. I have been on the receiving end of so many slights over the years that it feels good to share my inner thoughts. I am the very model of an inscrutable Oriental so you need not worry about me - or others like me, because there are plenty of us in England - are going to humiliate you in public even if we might judge you in private.

I agree that racial profiling has a big part to play in people’s attitudes, whether the result of deliberate racism or unconscious bias.

maurya · 02/08/2020 15:08

@SerenityNowwwww I definitely know a lot of gits, but behaving like a git myself - on threads such as this for example - is giving me the opportunity to say a few things that need to be said.

Procne · 02/08/2020 15:16

I think you must be confusing me with someone else, @maurya. But you go right on and enjoy yourself, even if the zest with which you are indulging in your little orgy of snobbery suggests a less rarefied level of aristocratic sang froid than you seem to associate with the socially-secure. Grin

breadcakebiscuits · 02/08/2020 15:25

Procne posts on grammar threads, which is probably a very accurate marker for the MMC Grin.

In a posh-off of cabinet ministers, it would be interesting to see who would win.

hadenoughbleach · 02/08/2020 15:38

Immigrants, and I'm assuming you mean non-white immigrants, are automatically working class...or so I was informed by my white British work colleague apropos of nothing. I was advised that immigrants can't go any higher than that, and should know their place Hmm

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 02/08/2020 15:44

Maurya no need to shout the loudest. Quite at odds with the image you are trying to paint of yourself there.

workhomesleeprepeat · 02/08/2020 15:48

interesting thread OP! My family moved around a lot when I was growing up, so this coupled with private education and being mixed race seems to confuse people. Its like they want to put me in an 'immigrant' box, but if for some reason my upbringing comes up (usually people asking about my accent), then they start making comments about that and how my family must have lots of money. In the grand scheme of things my parents did not have a lot of money, a lot of the benefits we had like schooling came direct from the company my dad worked for.

What always confuses me here is that people seem very insistent on hanging on to their 'class'. Like if they come from a 'working class' background, then even if they have a high paying job and own a couple of properties, they are still 'working class', and associate certain values with that, as if somehow you wouldn't have those values if you weren't from that class? Very odd to me.

breadcakebiscuits · 02/08/2020 15:50

I have two first generation immigrant Polish friends. Both are teachers, and the daughters of university lecturers. Without exception otherwise intelligent and educated people - and some of them not white, so with experience of wrongful prejudice - will assume from their nationality alone that they are well-married au pairs. Conscious bias, unconscious bias, confirmation bias, whatever you call it, from this thread alone, I think it’s a very inaccurate way of categorising people.

CatsArePeopleToo · 02/08/2020 15:57

and associate certain values with that, as if somehow you wouldn't have those values if you weren't from that class? Very odd to me.

What baffles me is that people assume they are not allowed certain things because of their "class".

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 02/08/2020 16:30

I'm not sure anyone is really upper class if they give even the smallest of shits about it, really. Devoting all this time & thought to it as a subject is very much a middle class pursuit Grin

breadcakebiscuits · 02/08/2020 16:43

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

I'm not sure anyone is really upper class if they give even the smallest of shits about it, really. Devoting all this time & thought to it as a subject is very much a middle class pursuit grin

That’s in our class system though. The PP is referring to the Indian caste system, which is a closed system so you have to be born into it. Your unwillingness to acknowledge her poshness is actually the prejudice she was pointing out.

serenada · 02/08/2020 17:45

@breadcakebiscuits

Your unwillingness to acknowledge her poshness is actually the prejudice she was pointing out.

Yes, absolutely.

I tought that the British class system was designed to get rid of that actually - normalise us all and get rid of caste, tribal, and community hierarchies which is where the Anglican model come in - it provides a level so that thos ewho would be viewed as 'lower' class can be equalised up and those upper class cannot grandstand over the ordinary woker. The framework we all interact with balances this and our education system was supposed to mirror it (!).

Certainly, @maurya you can go and shove that kind of pretentiousness nonsense where the sun don't shine. We 've progressed beyond that my father was kind of stuff here.

Xenia · 02/08/2020 18:17

Cats, the UK working class used to aspire to classical music and after work adult education and some have lost that desire. Also some socialist countries like the then Soviet bloc and Cuba deliberately took things like classical ballet to the masses and in the UK traditionally most English church of England churches had full formal boys' choir which local boys could sing in. We somehow lost that heritage for some which is a pity. My grandparents who were by no means rich met in 1916 in the very cheapest seats in a theatre in Newcastle.

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