First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

@classmisfit

I get it but sometimes people will suggest cleaning jobs as a short term thing to anyone. If you were suited up and mentioned another job, it is unlikely. There are some people who would construe cleaning as a job beneath them, but only some, and they would be snobs. There are many people who do cleaning in between jobs and we have just had 15 years of pp from Eastern Europe working as cleaners with degrees and a widespread realisation that the job market is much more random than people would like to assume.

There is a value you are placing on their comments that is negative -
you are looking for a reason (overweight/sloppy dress).

I met many cleaners in teaching who were doing the job around study, other p/t work, etc. I know a retired professional who does it to get out of the house and she thoroughly enjoys it. You are looking to alter peoples' perceptions of you based on the thought that they are assessing you as low class - which you do not want to be seen as - they may well just be trying to be helpful.

they probably are trying to be helpful
but if someone said to me 'oh I'm between jobs' i'd say
'oh, right, what do you usually do?'
and go from there....the fact that people immediately jump to cleaning/childcare (the low status of working with children in this country aside) tells you about their assumptions, which are foreign, therefore manual worker, more or less.
OP YANBU

@StillWeRise - agree with your comment

@StillWeRise sadly you are right

or stopgap. Obviously we see things differently.

I am working with women who are incredibly stand offish to me . They are in a field I know a lot of but they have moved from the commercial to the art side - for them, the commercial knowledge they have gained in the last 5 years is significant as they don't have this degree of industry in their country but to me, I grew up with it and its nothing special. it is simply because I don't make a fuss that they cannot place my response and I am encountering so much of this.

But this is different for each of us and we are all in different spheres - I was just trying to point out another perspective because really I am so sick of what feels like A'level politics and dramas.

But this is different for each of us and we are all in different spheres - I was just trying to point out another perspective because really I am so sick of what feels like A'level politics and dramas.

That's quite rude to be Frank. These are people's experiences, their feelings. It's a life for many of us with foreign accents especially from certain countries.

@serenada
Then I am creating an impression that I am in a desperate need of a stopgap job. Not sure that's a good impression either
I agree that people trying to be helpful, I did not argue with that. The question for me is why they think I need help.

I give up - I really do. If you think that worrying about this kind of stuff is adult, than be my guest @Schodingers

The reality is most adults are so busy trying to get on with their own lives they don't have the energy or time to play these power games. You don't engage, you don't feed people any thing and you certainly don't worry about class/perceptions.

@classmisfit

It really probably is just small talk - honestly. Or ask them. I don't think you are saying everyone you meet says this, just that you have noticed a bit of a pattern - I would look at what those people have in common - are they all w/c? If you get on with them they may think you are in the same boat as them.

Either way, best of luck but I am out.

@CatsArePeopleToo Yes! So confusing! Had a long term ex from a working class background and I was astounded at the kinds of things he thought were not for 'people like him' (his words not mine) - on his list were things like university education, home ownership, certain brands, etc.

Though what I found the most jarring is that he thought certain groups of people I knew looked down on him because of his background, but in actuality they really liked him and would invite him to things all the time - that he would turn down. For example we'd get invited to a BBQ and he'd say 'oh I'm sure they just want to act like a fancy host, I'm not going'. Maybe its just that he himself was insecure, but I have friends of all types and it was hard trying to guess who he would feel good around.

Assumptions will vary depending on where you are and what jobs other people with your accent do. So where I live there are many Eastern Europeans and most of the men work in building trades and many of the women are cleaners, hairdressers and work in shops or businesses catering for their language communities. There's comparatively few French or Spanish or Portuguese people, and I think they will get fewer assumptions made about what they might do.

Also how good your English is gets equated to how posh you are, sometimes - a school friend of mine grew up with English as her first language in a country where the teachers taught old-fashioned RP, with the result she sounded posher than the Queen when she first moved here. Apparently it was entertaining to see the change in judgement when she opened her mouth (she has dark brown skin). Similarly my mum is white and grew up very rurally with classmates who went to school barefoot, most dropped out after 10th grade to work on farms, etc. She found little problem in London or when living in Cambridge as she was simply 'foreign', but then in Home Counties suburbs encountered staff refusing to serve her in shops so she started to drop her accent and try to sound English. As she worked with many upper-class types (think antiques dealing and restoration), she ended up sounding rather like them - while my dad was the classic working-class grammar-school lad made good, went to uni, dropped his local accent, with the result I sound as middle-class Home Counties as they come. Ended up at a posh boarding school where 'like us' groupings were based on how much money you had rather than your parents, (the millionaire's kid having to withdraw cash daily to pay their fees after parents vanished was in the 'no spare cash' group), but 25 years on it's fascinating seeing the range of 'normal' expectations of different families. 'My parents helped a bit with our house deposit' can mean 2k, 20k, or 200k for example - life with only a 25% mortgage is a very different beast to first-generation middle-class income-havers in the same jobs on a 90% mortgage...

I don't feel proud of the following, but I'm not sure how to deal with it.

I assume that Eastern European women in my area are less likely to have jobs than other women. I actually assume the opposite for Eastern European men.

So I'm stereotyping based on ethnic origin and sex. Not great.

It is based on experience of some families whose circumstances I do know.

Hopefully you wouldn't know I assume this and I certainly wouldn't offer work to someone unless I knew they might be looking/interested.

@serenada
In any case - thank you for your contributions.

I 'm not sure that there is a discrete British class system though? On here there are a million supposed markers, online quizzes tell you that ownership of a hot tub makes you MC(!) and I once saw a poster here claim they bought clothes from Next therefore they were MC.
It's not as simple as having money makes you move up a class either, it's much more nuanced than that . If you look at early episodes of Rich House Poor House it was much more representative of MC v WC; the 'rich' houses were either country piles with understated yet timeless decor or Victorian terraces. Later episodes were all nouveau riche families, who obviously had very working class roots. This was reflected in their home decor, possessions and pursuits.
I attended a grammar school with a high population of Asians and I think a lot of class markers are universal.

[quote serenada]@breadcakebiscuits

Sunak's parents were a doctor and chemist, no?

I accept that in working class backgrounds there are lots of unacknowledged barriers but to me, one of the most negative and insidious ideas that holds people back, is this sense that success is dependant on class.

Class is a social construct, originally a way of identifying people in sociology and, as individuals we mustn't let those things define us. They can make things easier or harder, admittedly, but if the core infrastructure is maintained, we will all progress.

It is possible.[/quote]
Sunak married into one of the richest and well-connected families of India. This counts far far more than his patents’ background ever will. I believe that his parents’s background is actually quite useful politically. It sends all the right ‘signals’ to the rest of us, without highlighting the real source of his current position.

Just to add to my comment, a doctor and a chemist can actually make a lot of money between them. And it takes a lot of hard work to get just a simple graduate degree now than it took some decades ago. Becoming a doctor is not cheap and people with previledge backgrounds are far more likely to succeed in the current times.

Sunak was head boy at Winchester which is a large part of his class rather than his marriage as money does not equal class status in these complex English rules.

Tot, not sure I agree. Never in British history has it been possible for the children of the less well off to go to university so easily as if you have the grades you can go (when I went only 15% could go and many did not get full grants) and you can get a loan you never pay back if you do not earn over £26k. Also the less well off can go and the better off can find it harder as the less well off can get up to £11k full maintenance loan in London but that is half as much for others. that student loans scheme is one of the achievements of which the labour party is most proud because it has helped so many people get on.

I think many first generation immigrants that have come from countries where because the British influence/colonised they are already influenced by the British class system with added own cultural influences especially if middle class

I have friends from Columbia it absolutely baffles them. Also friends from Germany (though not sure why it’s evident there not to uk levels) and Eastern Europe are amused. Family and friends from Sri Lanka. Caribbean, India, Nigeria not so much. Particularly from India and Nigeria it’s noticeably evident (the people I know)

I was surprised in Australia that new money and old money was even considered. Through Australia seems to pride itself as being a country where class doesn’t have barriers in my experience it was evident but not to the level it is in the UK.

A mere 4% of doctors (raised in the UK) are from working class backgrounds.

www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i6330

I imagine a similar stat with doctors brought up in other countries; although it would be great if it's higher.

@ItsAlwaysSunnyOnMN - Colombia (and all of South America) has its own class system; the elites being those who are in the main lighter-skinned, and have clear family lines to the Spanish.
There will not be many people of pure native heritage in positions of power there, or black people either I imagine.

It might look different to UK class system but it is absolutely there.

@NeedToKnow101
It is quite different in my country, doctors being one of the worst paid professions. Same for teachers. Also vets, for example - need a tough degree and I know a couple of vets from my country who obtained a licence to practice in the UK after sitting an equivalence exam (so the education is probably not that bad!). But it is considered to be a very working class occupation, on par with a mechanic, say. I was very surprised to find that in the UK it is regarded very highly (and all James Herriot books from my childhood finally "clicked" for me).
What I could not understand in the British system, by the way, is where farmers fit.

OP It’s an interesting debate. I’m a first generation immigrant, have lived in the UK for over 30 years. White but don’t have a British accent. I am always bemused that this means that some people don’t know how to “place” me mentally in whatever system they have running in their heads.

There is often an assumption that I will be less educated/qualified than them because of my accent.

[quote serenada]@breadcakebiscuits

Your unwillingness to acknowledge her poshness is actually the prejudice she was pointing out.

Yes, absolutely.

I tought that the British class system was designed to get rid of that actually - normalise us all and get rid of caste, tribal, and community hierarchies which is where the Anglican model come in - it provides a level so that thos ewho would be viewed as 'lower' class can be equalised up and those upper class cannot grandstand over the ordinary woker. The framework we all interact with balances this and our education system was supposed to mirror it (!).

Certainly, @maurya you can go and shove that kind of pretentiousness nonsense where the sun don't shine. We 've progressed beyond that my father was kind of stuff here.[/quote]
Wow.

It's a good thing 'dog rough' does not exist as a class.

@NeedToKnow101 I'm Mexican. Political classes do have plenty of darker skinned members. Our greatest statesman (Benito Juarez) was an indigenous shepherd from Oaxaca. There's a lot of discrimination based on skin colour. If you're darker skinned (and have money) you'll most likely be called new money or related to any of the thousands of corrupt politicians.

@NeedToKnow101

A mere 4% of doctors (raised in the UK) are from working class backgrounds.

www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i6330

I imagine a similar stat with doctors brought up in other countries; although it would be great if it's higher.

Do you think this is due to bit of a self fulfilling prophecy? "I am wc, therefore I can't be a doctor" Or more that they are told "You are wc, therefore you can't be a doctor"