First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

I am sometimes perceived as a 'well married working class girl' (not that there's anything wrong with that) etc because my husband is British. Quite a few times people treated me as a gold-digger because he is a white, English man who studied at Oxford. One person even told me 'how lucky I was to land every 'Eastern European woman's dream deal''. One of the more disgusting stereotypes about Eastern Europeans out there, in my opinion.

In reality - I have a PhD from an equally prestigious uni (he has MA), I come from a long line of academics (he's the first in his family to attend university), and am earning about 3x my husband's salary. Of course, none of this matters in our household and we are raising our child to fight stereotypes, but I'll admit I was occasionally hurt by such comments.

Interesting thread.

My FIL is a first generation immigrant and people have made assumptions about his intelligence and 'social standing' as a result of being obviously not British. He has a strong accent despite having lived here for many years, and I was genuinely shocked at some of the stories he and my MIL have told me about how they've both been treated based purely on peoples assumptions around him being an 'obvious' immigrant.

To echo what a few PP have mentioned, I've never really thought about class or 'allocated' a class to people I know unless I've met someone who is obviously upper class (aristocracy, landed gentry etc), but I have noticed that an awful lot of people pigeon hole others based on their accent alone, be it sub-consciously or otherwise. For example, I don't have the local accent of where I live, and purely because I have an undefinable 'BBC' accent people always assume I'm from money and 'posh', which is simply not the case.

It's really quite interesting but baffling at the same time. Britain is quite unique in that regard, when it comes to class and social perceptions of such.

I'm American and it is fascinating looking at this from the outside. Read Watching the English if you're interested in some of the details that we miss!

I think that the class system in America is maybe a little more complex than some pps have said above. My parents are from different classes there and it has a lot of layers.

I think lots of the "immigrants must be working class" comes from the incorrect idea that if someone immigrates to UK they are doing it because it was crap in their country and you were probably poor because why else to move etc. I would have very similar life back there, but I liked the multicultural aspect here. And that people know how to queue!

Not at all. Ireland is a Republic - the UK kept its monarchy, Lords, Earls, Baronets, etc. We have a far broader range in society because of this whereas nearly all Republics across Europe standardized out that aspect - the wealth was consolidated out of familial hands into te State or public wealth. If you attended Oxford, you would have caught a glimpse of this, particularly at one of the very trad colleges. In addition, Ireland is a very young country in many ways - in terms of the Free State.

Income is very little to do with it. Assets are different.

But none of this explains in any sense the logic of why you think

middle class Irish are closer to lower middle class /working class English when you take into account the full breadth of wealth in the country

ok, how are you defining middle class Irish? I would say a teacher in Ireland is viewed as m/c because it is a well paid, secure job that traditionally afforded th eopportunity for home ownership, a good secure pension and indicated university education (plus postgrad).

Whilst those same things are true in the UK, teaching seems to be viewed more lower m/c now. We view business differently in the UK too compared to Ireland where professiona were always held in high regards.

The differences are very small but build up to alter the overall picture, I think.

@Chloemol

I don’t care where anyone comes from as long as they pay their way, and can speak at least some English, with a view to learning more

It does frustrate me that so much money is spent on translated materials and translators in the nhs, police etc when it’s not abroad. There is you don’t speak the language you pay for the translator

Is this what you’d say to a refugee who has fled from a war torn country?

I find it a bit odd when people say other countries don't have as visible a class system as the UK. In all 'developing' countries people with money have maids and housekeepers, a clear sign of the class system.

UK class system is entrenched too. Social mobility has lessened a lot since austerity.

I find when talking to people from other countries, that if I listen carefully I will discover what class they are from. It might be chit chat about their professional standing or being in a creative industry, how much land or homes the family has, that shows they may be middle-class or higher, or conversely being told that they were held captive by their employer, and their passport taken from them by employer, may lead me to ascertain that they come from lower down the 'class' ladder.

I genuinely try not to make assumptions, although we all do. It's human nature.

I find it a bit odd when people say other countries don't have as visible a class system as the UK.
I'd probably say that in many countries the class system, is, on the contrary, quite visible. And very correlated with money. You earn more money - you move higher in the class hierarchy, and it would not occur to anyone to sneer at your parent being a factory worker.

In Britain, however, it is not so obvious, and that is why it really puzzles me, an immigrant who came here as an adult and probably will never 100% integrate.

I think it isn't about the countries not having it, but for example in mine it has not defined us. It's too confusing.
And how I, and many of my friends grew up, just doesn't compute into class image here.
Large land, yet tiny abode and shared room with sibling. Couldn't afford holidays abroad but had a holiday cottage with land. Had a car and always full fridge. But again. Lived in 1 bed "flat". 1 primary/secondary and everyone went there no matter how much their parents made. People from different income families were mixing and no one batted an eye.
We weren't poor, we weren't rich. We were just... Meh normal.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

What country / part of the world?

[quote serenada]@SchrodingersImmigrant

What country / part of the world?[/quote]
Central europe

Previously under USSR?

Would that have made a difference?

My parents are first generation immigrants and my dad chose a low paid job because he didn’t particularly need the money and wanted a stress free job. His English is good but he has a very strong native accent. People have always been surprised at both his education and intelligence which annoys the hell out of me so yes, I do think they are judged.

My mother is a first gen immigrant and was never interested in clothes or make up.

She noted how people treated her differently when they found out she is a doctor.

She is not white and has perfect English with an accent from a former British colony.

The thing is it's almost totally cultural, money has some influence but a lot less than you might think and the thing so many people struggle to realise is, you can't change your class. Your children may be a different class from you but I don't think that individuals can change their class. So I know upper middle class builders and w/c lawyers. The lawyers children are middle class but the woman herself is still firmly read as w/c.

Someone commented earlier that they didn't think people considered class as they never heard anyone talking about anyone else's class. It's not something you talk about, it's a judgement you make internally. I know that when I meet someone new I will use various markers to work out what class they are. It doesn't impact on whether I like them or not.

first gen immigrants are very confusing class wise and basically have their own category!

@lemonsandlimes123

I will use various markers to work out what class they are.

Is that so that you can identify the best way to speak to them - is it a way of just modifying your behaviour so that you can connect with them?

Or is that we measure people up against ourselves and change our behaviour subtly in respect to that?

@serenada

Previously under USSR?

Would that have made a difference?

Well there was a class behind iron curtain, but it certainly made it different to, let's say UK. People had different outlook on things and so different priorities than here. I got a feeling in here that it would be almost shameful for siblings to share room until one moves out. But main point there was that we just have such mixed, what is here, class markers, people here can't put us in the x or y box. The main difference for me is that it didn't define us as a person as it seems to define people here. Or rather as they seem to define themselves by it.

Late DH was mixed race. His mother was from a very wealthy family who with thousands of others left everything behind to escape persucution involving hundreds of miles tracking through jungle and leaving loved ones who died on the way.
When she got to India she met working class FIL and the rest is a complete love story. They returned to Edinburgh, not the city it is today and made a life and had their children.

For everyone who says that they are immune to class and race that is complete bullshit. DH and his family, despite humble beginnings on a scheme in Edinburgh, have been incredibly high achievers. However late DH experienced loads of racism cloaked in the 'but we do not mean you' whilst in the board room. People laughed at a black man having an Edinburgh accent. His sister who is massively important in a national bank took her niece to her health club to swim. Niece calls her nanny and everyone actually assumed she was a nanny. These are overt examples but I have noticed most people have a 'where do you come from' perspective when they meet us. Dressing it up as interest does not hide the fact my family have been judged as different and usually people are quite condensing. They obviously do not realise this.

DD constantly gets the piss taken out of her because of her accent. She looks a bit exotic but has been brought up in a massive city in Yorkshire. Not some backwards home county commuter town. We have theatre, ballet, a world wide piano competition etc but she is the poor relation according to my family in the south east.

It's irritating that if you come from certain countries, usually wealthy ones, you are automatically an "expat", if you come from other you are an "immigrant".

I would give anyone a wide berth who I felt was judging me by my accent, area I live in, job I do. I tend to find class obsessive people boring and quite often empty headed as they base their interaction with people and friendships on what car they have on their drive rather than kindness and morals.

I would give anyone a wide berth who I felt was judging me by my accent, area I live in, job I do

I bet everyone you know does that, even if only unconsciously, to some extent. Maybe not judging your worth, but certainly making a judgement as to who you are, where you fit in, what your identity is.