BAME risk...It's not about ethnicity is it?

[MindTheRiskPlease]

Surely this whole "BAME" (nonsense term btw) people at risk of Covid is not about race ethnicity, is it?

If so, I don't see a great number of people being affected in "BAME" countries. Cases and Deaths are much much lower than that of the UK.

I live in a small town. Everyone is going about their business and following guidelines. Is 'the rona' coming to find me then because... "race" or is there more to it than that?

If two people (one "BAME", other not) come in contact with a covid patient, would the virus "choose" the BAME person and not the other? Wouldn't they both be at risk, depending on some factors? (What has ethnicity go to do with it?)

AIBU to think this whole "BAME people are more at risk" is a bit of a fallacious statement and has to be broken down to factors like geographical location, health, age, job, etc to actually be accurate?

In general I agree - it's more likely that BAMEs put ourselves at risk. We are more likely to live in homes with three generations of a family which obviously increases risk. There is also the cultural aspect, many BAMEs I know are less willing to self-isolate, wash hands or wear masks than my white friends are. Maybe not a PC statement but as a BAME I can say in my experience it's true.

I suppose it's true that BAMEs are more susceptible to diabetes, which can make COVID outcomes worse.

Darker skin makes less vitamin D from the sun - and vitamin D deficiency is thought to be a significant factor in severe cases.

countries where black and asian populations dominate tend to have more sunlight than Britain (especially earlier in the year)

You're right, it's a lot more than just skin colour affecting COVID infections/outcomes. It's a host of socio-economic factors too that increase risk for BAME people such as living arrangements, job types, financial security. etc.

Its really complex, I think certain ethnicities are at more risk of catching it because of the jobs they tend to do...so my Filipino PILs (care home nurse and hospital housekeeper) are at lots of risk of catching it, but DH and BIL (wfh office workers aren't)

As it happens I think both my mixed race DC had it (caught it off DBro the week before lockdown - he's since had a positive antibody test) and they were fine, for the older one it was just like any other nursery bug and the baby just caughed a bit and had gunky eyes...(but apart from being BAME they have no risk factors eg, young, not in poverty, not in an area with high pollution, healthy diet because they are not tired shift workers...)
DH didn't get any symptoms (BAME, early 30s, healthy weight) and I spent 2 weeks in bed and had breathing difficulties for a few days (white, early 30s, healthy weight...but I was 8 weeks post partum which I think is why I think I got it worse than the DC)

The government has apparently put aside 4 million to look into it. So I guess we’ll see what the report says.

Some of the external factors will still be driven by ethnicity. So BAME people are more likely than white people to work in low-status, low-paid jobs (healthcare, public transport etc) therefore are more exposed than the "average" white person. The fact they are in those jobs, and not a nice middle-class work-from-home job, is due to systemic racism in education and in employment. Are you saying that this is an indirect cause so doesn't count as being due to ethnicity? I would strongly disagree...

The government's recent report takes into account all the factors you name, and even accounting for those, BAME people are more at risk. You might want to do a bare minimum of research before posting something like this.

I think it’s a mixture of things as stated above. Large communities, mass gatherings, social expectations, jobs, vitamin d.

We know they are more at risk, we know they are more likely to die, especially males.

I can’t understand why they aren’t taking it more seriously.

I thought it was probably closer to what a cautionary tale says above - the vit D thing. And it's not a case of Covid 'chosing' people, but that the outcomes are worse.

I'm not sure about the socio-economic thing - it appears that very well paid consultants at hospitals suffered just as much as less-well paid roles, and more than their white peers in the same roles?

Just because other factors like health, age, job, location etc come into play, that doesn't mean that ethnicity itself can't be a factor. There are other diseases which disproportionately affect people of particular races and ethnicities.

You might just as well say it's nonsense that age affects your likelihood of dying of Covid 19 because other factors also affect your chances.

@Pootles34 you should do some research rather than just saying well-paid consultants have died of it. Some of the well-paid consultants from BAME backgrounds delibrately decided to work treating Covid patients and they were elderly. While others from BAME backgrounds asked their hospitals for PPE to treat their patients and were refused it.

@BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou there was stuff going around social media before the companies clamped down on it saying that black people couldn't get Covid. Then there is the issue that some people who are religious think God will save them from it.

My DP lost his shit at work because a colleague of his, who is religious and BAME, kept trying to come near him. His management tried to make him take the time off because him being at work was a risk to me. However as he's a union rep he stuck to his guns because if he didn't make management adhere to working Covid safe then more of his BAME and disabled colleagues would come down with it.

Most covid deaths are in London, which is 41 per cent BAME.

BAME are not more at risk of catching it, they are more at risk of developing serious complications.

I don't think any conclusions have been made why this is so. Living conditions and occupation may play a role but PHE analysis found that once admitted to hospital, people from a BAME community were almost three times as likely to be admitted to ICU.

There is a higher prevalence of underlying health issues in BAME people living in the western world; they are more likely to be overweight, have diabetes and heart disease.

I don't see why "BAME" is a nonsense term. Do people find it offensive?

RedRum Er why are you picking on me? I didn't claim to be an expert, this is a chat on Mumsnet, not an article for the Lancet.

Could you share with us your research findings?

I live in an area with a relatively high Asian population. It’s a fairly affluent area. During the height of lockdown, I would say 95% of people I saw breaking the rules were Asian. Walk through the park and there were always a couple of Asian families playing in the padlocked playground, 2or more Asian families stood next to each other chatting, their kids playing together, groups of Asian boys handing out together, houses where I know Asian families live suddenly having 20 cars arrive on a Saturday afternoon for a get together. The trouble is no one seems willing to mention this except in hushed tones. Everytime I see these pockets of high incidence it is almost invariably in areas with high Asian populations.

Obviously the majority of Asian families were abiding by the rules but I can see why the virus load was so much higher within these communities,coupled with multi generational living, disproportionate working in areas most likely to still be out working, genetic factors and lifestyle factors meaning a larger incidence to diabetes and pre diabetes at lower weights than white counterparts, different vitamin intakes potentially different physical make ups I suspect there is no single answer.

You might want to do a bare minimum of research before posting something like this

Thanks for the condescending attitude and assumption.

Putting that silliness aside...

Are you saying that this is an indirect cause so doesn't count as being due to ethnicity?

Yes because it's the job...and therefore more exposure to the virus that's caused the risk..not their ethnicity.

Are you saying a white person doing the same job in the same location would be at less risk because they are white and no other reason?

Holding an indoor funeral 'service' for 250 people might be a factor, if this kind of thing is happening regularly.
Religious gatherings have been identified as high risk/ superspreading events around the world.

There is also the cultural aspect, many BAMEs I know are less willing to self-isolate, wash hands or wear masks than my white friends are

Whose culture is this?

This is why I have an issue with the whole "BAME" term - lumping everyone into one culture, therefore expecting the same behaviour and outcome.

countries where black and asian populations dominate tend to have more sunlight than Britain (especially earlier in the year)

Ok. So I suppose this is a UK issue for BAME people then, not a general ethnicity issue.

@Pootles34 I'm not picking on you. Your comment seems to minimise the deaths of people just because they are well-paid. It ignores their sex, age, occupation and circumstance plus ethnicity put them at high risk of dying from Covid.
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/09/consultant-who-pleaded-for-more-nhs-hospital-ppe-dies-of-coronavirus

There hasn't been any conclusion drawn as to the reasons certain groups are more at risk from Covid. The risk appears to be more to do with outcomes than risks of contracting the virus.

Nobody can say with certainty that any one thing is the reason for that, although I see from this post that people will still state reasons as if they are absolute fact. It is likely to be a combination of factors - the same combination that leads to many other poor outcomes for the same groups and will continue to do so until we recognise it and look for ways to fix it.

While others from BAME backgrounds asked their hospitals for PPE to treat their patients and were refused it.

This is massively anecdotal and unrepresentative. There are thousands of stories of healthcare workers being refused PPE.

Why on earth is BAME a "nonsense term"?

From what I have read it is multi-factorial: BME less likely to take time off work, live in more built up areas, in multi-generational families, vitamin D issues. BUT I also read a link (which of course I cannot find now) stating that BME consultants were disproportionately allocated onto COVID wards, implying that there was institutional racism.

I saw four groups of people refusing to wear masks and refusing to follow the directions even when asked to by the staff. All were BAME! One of them even told my friend (also BAME) that she was “letting the sisterhood down by agreeing to wear a mask” and “you shouldn’t agree to to cover your colour”. She just told them they were the ones letting the community down not her!

Wow! Weird. Really really shockingly weird. Have never come across this particular train of thought and I'm intrigued to find out what they're on about.

Study has been done about how Covid targets the ACE receptor and different ethnicities have different amounts of ACE receptors duevto genetics. www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.22.915660v1.full

This was reported on by www.eturbonews.com/542533/coronavirus-risk-for-asians-africans-caucasians-revealed/

“Apparently the coronavirus enters a human body through some connection with something called the ACE2 receptor. East Asians and men have more than say white Europeans and women. Being a white woman seems to be the way to have much lesser risk.

According to this study and based on the assumption in this study and in regards to the receptor, Angiotensin-converting enzyme 2, human populations where samples were available were categorized by risk in obtaining a dangerous version of the virus. Most ill may not feel more than a common cold, for others Coronavirus can be fatal.

According to this preliminary study the risk of obtaining the virus:

High risk 90%-99%
Japanese in Tokyo, Japan
Southern Han Chinese
Kinh in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
Han Chinese in Bejing, China
Chinese Dai in Xishuangbanna, China

Moderate Risk: 80-89%
Not found

Medium to Moderate Risk: 70-79%
Peruvians from Lima, Peru
Bengali from Bangladesh
Sri Lankan Tamil from the UK
Indian Telgu from the UK
Mexican Ancestry from Los Angeles, USA
South Asians (general average)

Medium Risk: 60-69%
Gujarati Indians from Houston, TX
Admixed Americans
Americans of African Ancestry in SW USA
Punjabi from Lahore, Pakistan
African Caribbeans in Barbados
Luhya in Webuye, Kenya
Mende in Sierra Leona
Africans (general average)
Esan in Nigeria
British in U.K.
Gambians in Western Division in The Gambia
Puerto Ricans

Low to Medium Risk: 50-59%
Colombians from Medellin
Yoruba in Ibadan, Nigeria
Finnish in Finland
Iberian Population in Spain
Europeans (in General)
Utah Residence (Caucasians)
Toscani, Italy”