BAME risk...It's not about ethnicity is it?

[MindTheRiskPlease]

Surely this whole "BAME" (nonsense term btw) people at risk of Covid is not about race ethnicity, is it?

If so, I don't see a great number of people being affected in "BAME" countries. Cases and Deaths are much much lower than that of the UK.

I live in a small town. Everyone is going about their business and following guidelines. Is 'the rona' coming to find me then because... "race" or is there more to it than that?

If two people (one "BAME", other not) come in contact with a covid patient, would the virus "choose" the BAME person and not the other? Wouldn't they both be at risk, depending on some factors? (What has ethnicity go to do with it?)

AIBU to think this whole "BAME people are more at risk" is a bit of a fallacious statement and has to be broken down to factors like geographical location, health, age, job, etc to actually be accurate?

@Orangeblossom78

The problem with looking at who is being fined by the police is that it is not an objective measure. The police have to decide to issue the fine and they may be disproportionately fining certain groups.

Are you saying a white person doing the same job in the same location would be at less risk because they are white and no other reason?

No, did you read my post?

I am saying that a white person is, on average, less likely to be doing the same job, therefore on average white people are less exposed. The reason white people are less likely to be doing the same job is due to institutional racism, which is an effect of ethnicity. Therefore, ethnicity is an indirect driver of BAME people being more at risk from Covid.

AIBU to think this whole "BAME people are more at risk" is a bit of a fallacious statement and has to be broken down to factors like geographical location, health, age, job, etc to actually be accurate? - err, yes, "fallacious" means "not true". You are saying that BAME people are no more at risk than white people, because there's no science that says that a black person and a white person in exactly the same situation are not equally likely to get Covid (N.B. there's no scientific evidence to the contrary either). I am saying that BAME people are more at risk, because they are more likely to be in that situation in the first place. I am also saying that this is a result of their ethnicity, and specifically being in a mostly-white country where they are a minority and subject to discrimination.

My point is that you are dismissing a lot of external factors as not affected by ethnicity, when they are. The fact that ethnicity may not be a direct cause (and it's not proven!) does not mean it is not a cause at all. It is like saying "the gender pay gap is because women choose to work part-time and aren't career-minded, whereas men all work full-time and are ambitious" - it doesn't interrogate the underlying factors. Without addressing the underlying factors, you cannot answer the question that you posed.

@YgritteSnow

"BAME" (nonsense term btw)

Ok, what is acceptable language and/or terminology now? Serious question.

It's not about acceptable terminology for me personally. I don't care about PC terminology. It's about not using a catch all term to lump people as a homogenous group. But I'm not holding my breath that it would ever happen. When it comes to specific issues, things will need to be broken down into specific categories rather than just "race".

I don't see why "BAME" is a nonsense term. Do people find it offensive?

I don't find it offensive...in that the term doesn't "offend" me and I'm fine with people using it. I just think what I've written above.

Yes I agree Chaz meant to mention that in the post. I think it does say that in the article. I have also read groups of young Asian men are thought to have increased rate in the Leicester area, unsure if they tend to gather in groups perhaps and then bring it home to multi generational households, which was the way it was being presented.

@Devlesko

I don't think it's a case of more cases of covid in BAME people, it's more deaths. That was what was reported. We are no more likely than anyone else of catching it, just more chance of complications and death.

I can see this but again is it based on BAME people in the UK then and not BAME as ethnicity specifically (which again would imply there's more to it) because other "BAME" people in other countries have very low death rate compared to the UK.

Interestingly one of the drugs used against COVID is useful against HIV too...

@Orangeblossom78 Thanks. That's interesting to know. Will take a look.

[quote ChazsBrilliantAttitude]@Orangeblossom78

The problem with looking at who is being fined by the police is that it is not an objective measure. The police have to decide to issue the fine and they may be disproportionately fining certain groups.[/quote]
Who is being fined is objective, but if we ask is this because more BAME males are in a situation where they are liable to be fined and being fined or are there people/males white or BAME breaching the lawsa and only BAME are being fined?

In the same way there are more black males in prison, disproportinate to the BAME population, more are arrested than whites proportionally BUT is more crime reported as being by BAME males proportionally?

@YgritteSnow

I can well understand that BAME as an umbrella term must feel dismissive and as a PP said indicative of lack of interest in getting it right. So how do I get it right? Some people don't like being asked where they're from - this has been classed as racist too. I genuinely want to get this right, so what is the right way to go about finding out someone's ethnicity so that you may communicate with them respectfully?

I think it will be difficult to avoid offending someone. Personally, as long as there's no ill-intent, any question is acceptable to me and I'd much rather someone asked anyway than assume we all like the same thing/treatment or lack of.

I would ask the person how they'd want me to address them seeing as different people prefer to be addressed differently - i.e: Which term do you prefer - BAME, POC, black, brown, Nigerian, African,...? I'll have no problem with such questions but I know some might. You can't please everyone so just do what you can.

I went to a National Trust garden the other day. The vast majority of people there were social distancing well and if they were in groups they were sitting a good distance apart from each other.

There was one group who were noticeably too close to each other, had around 20 people in their group, were sitting in a close circle sharing food and generally carrying on as if the pandemic wasn't happening. All BAME. If one of them was contagious that day then others in the group would almost certainly be infected now.

No, did you read my post?

Yes I did.

Therefore, ethnicity is an indirect driver of BAME people being more at risk from Covid.

You just said you disagreed with this in your post. Did you even read your own post?

Quoting you: Are you saying that this is an indirect cause so doesn't count as being due to ethnicity? I would strongly disagree...

Now you've changed your mind?

err, yes, "fallacious" means "not true"

Err... fallacious
/fəˈleɪʃəs/

adjective
based on a mistaken belief.
"fallacious arguments"
Similar:
erroneous
false
untrue
wrong
incorrect
faulty
flawed
inaccurate
inexact
imprecise
mistaken
Etc

Err...I used it correctly.

I am saying that BAME people are more at risk, because they are more likely to be in that situation in the first place

You've just made my point then.
Point being covid isn't discriminating against white/bame, etc when all other things are equal. It's the circumstances that determine who's more at risk. As you've written, BAME people (in the UK, mind) are typically in these situations where they are more at risk. Therefore, isn't it the situation that makes them more at risk?

My point is that you are dismissing a lot of external factors as not affected by ethnicity, when they are. The fact that ethnicity may not be a direct cause (and it's not proven!) does not mean it is not a cause at all

Now who hasn't read posts properly? I'm talking about ethnicity not being the only cause because there are other factors to consider. That's the point of the whole thread. Yes that ethnicity isn't a direct cause. Again, if It's just about ethnicity, then people of the same ethnicity in other countries would be affected (just as much). What you're saying is sort of making my point for me without realising it.

@rainkeepsfallindown Agreed.

I think it's not just circumstantial or due to a BAME person's situation. The PHE analysis flagged up that a BAME person after being admitted to hospital with covid was almost 3 times as likely to develop life threatening complications, requiring Intensive care than a white person of similar age being admitted to hospital.

I'm not an expert though. It seems clear that knowledge of this virus is frighteningly uncertain and studies are still preliminary.

Although not with using "non-white", but I accept that's your preference.

Lindy2 Beaches? They were snithing on the few hot days we've had this month and when I left one at 9am the vast majority of people were white. Pubs going for lockdowns with too many people?

And you say the other day. If that was when two families could get together then that was within government guidelines.

@Merename

We need more research but from what I have read I assume it’s largely about institutional racism. For example disproportionately high numbers of ‘BAME’ (Agree shit term) nhs staff have died from Covid, and there is evidence that staff of colour are less likely to push for PPE, challenge decisions etc or be as freely able to advocate for themselves without fear of harsher consequences - as a result of centuries of white supremacy, essentially.

I can see this.

@MindTheRiskPlease

No, did you read my post?

Yes I did.

Therefore, ethnicity is an indirect driver of BAME people being more at risk from Covid.

You just said you disagreed with this in your post. Did you even read your own post?

Quoting you: Are you saying that this is an indirect cause so doesn't count as being due to ethnicity? I would strongly disagree...

Now you've changed your mind?

err, yes, "fallacious" means "not true"

Err... fallacious
/fəˈleɪʃəs/

adjective
based on a mistaken belief.
"fallacious arguments"
Similar:
erroneous
false
untrue
wrong
incorrect
faulty
flawed
inaccurate
inexact
imprecise
mistaken
Etc

Err...I used it correctly.

I am saying that BAME people are more at risk, because they are more likely to be in that situation in the first place

You've just made my point then.
Point being covid isn't discriminating against white/bame, etc when all other things are equal. It's the circumstances that determine who's more at risk. As you've written, BAME people (in the UK, mind) are typically in these situations where they are more at risk. Therefore, isn't it the situation that makes them more at risk?

You're being somewhat pedantic. OK, it's not ethnicity itself that is the issue (unless specific genetic factors are also found), it's racism. But people's experience of racism is based on their actual or perceived ethnicity.

So ethnicity is certainly the proximate cause of the issue, even though it isn't the root cause. Which is why people are referring to it being an indirect factor (which affects most of the other factors you mention).

@YgritteSnow

I can well understand that BAME as an umbrella term must feel dismissive and as a PP said indicative of lack of interest in getting it right. So how do I get it right? Some people don't like being asked where they're from - this has been classed as racist too. I genuinely want to get this right, so what is the right way to go about finding out someone's ethnicity so that you may communicate with them respectfully?

Easy: don't ask where someone is from!

The racist part is assuming someone is from a country that corresponds to their biology.

"Where are you from?" is generally a loaded question with connotations of "where are you from, because you don't look and/or sound like you should be from around these parts?"

If you ask what someone's ethnicity is in a polite way, that's not offensive. Asking where they're from often is.

If you actually want to know where someone is from (and this is a different question to their ethnic background), you can say something breezy like, "have you always lived here?" That shifts the tone significantly, as it implies the person could have always live here, and not abroad, which is the racist assumption many people make.

I'm also not against you saying something like "I find BAME quite a wide-ranging umbrella term, how would you prefer to describe yourself?" I totally don't mind that, and it's less intrusive than "what is your ethnic origin?"

"Where are you from?" just evokes so many memories of being singled out for 'looking foreign'. It's like nails on a blackboard. Please don't ask it.

It’s a really hard conversation to have without people shouting RACIST, which some of it will be. But some of it won’t be.

Anecdotally when I’m out it is Asian men who seem to struggle more with socially distancing. But it’s difficult saying that without sounding like a racist.

@crosstalk

Lindy2 Beaches? They were snithing on the few hot days we've had this month and when I left one at 9am the vast majority of people were white. Pubs going for lockdowns with too many people?

And you say the other day. If that was when two families could get together then that was within government guidelines.

It's already being established that crowded beaches do not cause spikes in infections. It's probably too early to knoe about pubs, though a few have closed temporarily as a precaution. OP, my opinion is that it's due to a combination of factors - genetic/biological, socio economic and cultural. The virus is so complex and it seems to affect every country and population differently. I think even very small factors will affect outcomes.

OP, my opinion is that it's due to a combination of factors - genetic/biological, socio economic and cultural
The virus is so complex and it seems to affect every country and population differently. I think even very small factors will affect outcomes

I can agree with this, especially considering some links posted.

@YgritteSnow

"BAME" (nonsense term btw)

Ok, what is acceptable language and/or terminology now? Serious question.

How about being more specific - for example a person with an East/South/Whatever Asian background or a person with an Afro-Carribean etc etc. BAME is the equivalent of calling all non-white people 'coloured'. As you will see from the study a pp posted, some ethnicities are more prone to serious outcomes from C-19 than others, so lumping everyone who is not white as BAME is really unhelpful, and possibly offensive.

what is the right way to go about finding out someone's ethnicity so that you may communicate with them respectfully?

What does knowing where someone is from have to do with how you communicate with them?? People are just all human beings with varying shades of skin colour. This is one of the most ignorant things I've read on MN for a while..

Darker skin makes less vitamin D from the sun - and vitamin D deficiency is thought to be a significant factor in severe cases. countries where black and asian populations dominate tend to have more sunlight than Britain (especially earlier in the year)

Yes I believe there’s truth in this.

One of them even told my friend (also BAME) that she was “letting the sisterhood down by agreeing to wear a mask” and “you shouldn’t agree to to cover your colour”.

Jeez, I despair. As a BAME this bringing everything back to colour infuriates me no end. The same people peddling this nonsense and causing hikes amongst the BAME population would soon start shouting about how it’s the fault of white privilege when they get hit badly with COVID. 🙄