BAME risk...It's not about ethnicity is it?

[MindTheRiskPlease]

Surely this whole "BAME" (nonsense term btw) people at risk of Covid is not about race ethnicity, is it?

If so, I don't see a great number of people being affected in "BAME" countries. Cases and Deaths are much much lower than that of the UK.

I live in a small town. Everyone is going about their business and following guidelines. Is 'the rona' coming to find me then because... "race" or is there more to it than that?

If two people (one "BAME", other not) come in contact with a covid patient, would the virus "choose" the BAME person and not the other? Wouldn't they both be at risk, depending on some factors? (What has ethnicity go to do with it?)

AIBU to think this whole "BAME people are more at risk" is a bit of a fallacious statement and has to be broken down to factors like geographical location, health, age, job, etc to actually be accurate?

There is also the cultural aspect, many BAMEs I know are less willing to self-isolate, wash hands or wear masks than my white friends are

Well that's utter bullshit now, isn't it.

I'm not sure the pictures of crowds flocking to the beaches and parks would support your conclusion there.

Looking around my area, which is 95% white, there are plenty of people not adhering to SD or wearing masks.

@SmileyClare

BAME are not more at risk of catching it, they are more at risk of developing serious complications.

I don't think any conclusions have been made why this is so. Living conditions and occupation may play a role but PHE analysis found that once admitted to hospital, people from a BAME community were almost three times as likely to be admitted to ICU.

There is a higher prevalence of underlying health issues in BAME people living in the western world; they are more likely to be overweight, have diabetes and heart disease.

I don't see why "BAME" is a nonsense term. Do people find it offensive?

I don't see why "BAME" is a nonsense term. Do people find it offensive?

It's a nonsense term as it simply means everyone who is not white European.

Actually its been known for years that different BAME groups have much higher incidents of heart disease and diabetes - its thought this is actually genetic as well as lifestyle. Rates are 4 or 5 times higher for e,g, with diabetes in some groups than others and it is this that is causing issues with Covid 19 rather than lack of handwashing etc - they are jut more vulnerable because of genetics

Some other diseases (Type 2 Diabetes for example) are both more prevalent in BAME individuals (and this seems to be a physiological issue as well as possibly a lifestyle issue e.g. the risk weight/waist measurement is lower for BAME individuals) AND put you more at risk of CV.

There are thousands of stories of healthcare workers being refused PPE.
Yes, and a very large proportion of healthcare workers are BAME so that's an extra disease burden on BAME individuals.

MindtheRisk Do you think there is an element of racism or prejudice to this?

I don't. It's got to be a good thing that the BAME risk is flagged up and investigated isn't it? Even taking into account other factors such as location, living conditions, age and occupation, the risk of developing life threatening complications with covid is still statistically higher. I don't know if that is a finding in other countries. You raise a good point there.
I was looking at PHE (public health England) data and analysis

There are other diseases which disproportionately affect people of particular races and ethnicities

I agree but this doesn't seem to be it. Hasn't been proven as a genetic issue so far. As someone mentioned, th government is looking into this so will be interested to find out the report.

You might just as well say it's nonsense that age affects your likelihood of dying of Covid 19 because other factors also affect your chances.

No. I added age (which could also be tied to health and where not tied to it, then just health) as a factor. Unless there's a genetic reason (which hasn't been proven) for this to affect specific ethnicities, it's still about other factors.

"BAME" (nonsense term btw)

Ok, what is acceptable language and/or terminology now? Serious question.

Hasn't been proven as a genetic issue so far.

Just going to ignore the study I posted? It’s actually the second scientific study showing a genetic link.

At the start of the pandemic much was made of how males have a higher mortality rate. Then the BAME mortality was mentioned. The concern about males dropped off....

@contrmary

In general I agree - it's more likely that BAMEs put ourselves at risk. We are more likely to live in homes with three generations of a family which obviously increases risk. There is also the cultural aspect, many BAMEs I know are less willing to self-isolate, wash hands or wear masks than my white friends are. Maybe not a PC statement but as a BAME I can say in my experience it's true.

I suppose it's true that BAMEs are more susceptible to diabetes, which can make COVID outcomes worse.

I don't think what you say about washing hands is true. Do you police all your 'BAME' acquaintances? I've lived amongst and worked with 'BAME' people since I was a young teenager (now retired), and would say they are very hygienic, a lot more than many of us (Caucasians). I don't know about the wearing of masks or self isolating as I am self isolating so rarely see anyone, however I did notice when I crossed the road to post a letter a black lady wearing a mask going into her house. She stood out because there were a handful of people who got off a bus and she was the only person wearing a mask.

A lot of 'BAMEs' work in health care which puts them at risk and you are right about the higher incidence of diabetes amongst the older people. That of course renders them more susceptible to contracting the virus.

I live in an area with a relatively high Asian population. It’s a fairly affluent area. During the height of lockdown, I would say 95% of people I saw breaking the rules were Asian. Walk through the park and there were always a couple of Asian families playing in the padlocked playground, 2or more Asian families stood next to each other chatting, their kids playing together, groups of Asian boys handing out together, houses where I know Asian families live suddenly having 20 cars arrive on a Saturday afternoon for a get together.

While I can see that some of these are going against guidelines, it's often hard to tell who is "breaking the rules" and who is "more at risk due to lifestyle". E.g. at a point where you could meet up in parks in two family groups, I saw a schoolmate of DS playing football with some other children. They are (coincidentally) Asian; I know which one is DS schoolmate's sister as they are at the same school but I am not completely sure how many other siblings he has, so two of the young adults were likely his siblings and live in his house. Then there were some other small children (who I don't know) and some other adults (one could well be schoolmate's dad, one could be other family's dad).

So that looks like "several family groups" but it could easily be "two dads, four small children, and three teens that live in two houses".

(I cannot remember either how many in total nor how many were allowed in total at that point).

I have heard about families with several teens (including foster families) who were reported to the police for all playing in the park together and teenage brothers out cycling together reported to the police. If you don't have a large family with teens/young adults you don't necessarily remember that other people do. Yes, if one of them's out at work in a supermarket and one is a medical student on wards, it puts the whole family at risk.

(And nobody, Asian or otherwise, was in our local locked parks despite many of the Asian families normally getting together for lovely big picnics while the kids play).

PlanDeReccord that's interesting although preliminary research. It indicates the risk is higher despite lifestyle and occupation.

I think we're on very shaky ground by making generalisations about Asians not social distancing and black people not washing their hands properly.

BAME is a nonsense term in this context because it is suggesting a homogeneous group with similar risk factors. My North African DH is unlikely to have the same risk profile as a Han Chinese person who is unlikely to have the same risk profile as a Igbo Nigerian.

@SmileyClare

PlanDeReccord that's interesting although preliminary research. It indicates the risk is higher despite lifestyle and occupation.

I think we're on very shaky ground by making generalisations about Asians not social distancing and black people not washing their hands properly.

I completely agree. I think compliance rates are probably the same across ethnicities.

SmileyClare:
I don't see why "BAME" is a nonsense term. Do people find it offensive?

RedRumtheHorse:
It's a nonsense term as it simply means everyone who is not white European.
.......
I too think it is silly, glad to know it isn't just me. I honestly can't think of any alternative though so will use it.

We need more research but from what I have read I assume it’s largely about institutional racism. For example disproportionately high numbers of ‘BAME’ (Agree shit term) nhs staff have died from Covid, and there is evidence that staff of colour are less likely to push for PPE, challenge decisions etc or be as freely able to advocate for themselves without fear of harsher consequences - as a result of centuries of white supremacy, essentially.

The evidence that vitamin D is a factor is growing, so much so that I as a white person have started taking it daily.

It is a well known fact that the darker the darker the skin, the harder it is to make vitamin D. If you spend the majority of your time outdoors in a country where there is a lot of sunlight your exposure is much greater.

If you are a black person living in the UK with an office job, you have a problem and become much higher risk.

@Supersimkin2

Most covid deaths are in London, which is 41 per cent BAME.

Yes but is this due to BAME or the population and all that goes with it?

Yes, and a very large proportion of healthcare workers are BAME so that's an extra disease burden on BAME individuals.

Of course that would affect a statistical analysis. But the inference we were supposed to draw from the statement was that they had been denied PPE based on their ethnicity.

I don't think it's a case of more cases of covid in BAME people, it's more deaths. That was what was reported. We are no more likely than anyone else of catching it, just more chance of complications and death.

In the context of research BAME seems an apt umbrella term for all the groups showing higher risk.

I can see that for an individual it might feel too generalised though. If for example a North African man was referred to as BAME during a doctor's appointment for example it would feel very impersonal and dismissive perhaps.

Thank you for posting that list, PlanDeRaccordement. It's very interesting and informative.

I noted that Japanese people in Tokyo are high risk.

A friend of my son died in June and her funeral took place a couple of weeks ago with maybe twenty people attending, well spaced. I saw it online.

Her father is Japanese and living in Tokyo; neither he or his son (her half brother), were able to come over for the funeral. It was very sad, the celebrant read out a letter/email her father sent and there was a photo of him and her taken in a restaurant when she visited him in Japan which she did regularly.

I think we're on very shaky ground by making generalisations about Asians not social distancing and black people not washing their hands properly.

These will be the same people who claim the reason higher numbers of certain groups have been arrested or fined for breaking lockdown is because those groups are more likely to break lockdown. As if the police haven't been proven to be institutionally racist.

@jessstan2

SmileyClare: I don't see why "BAME" is a nonsense term. Do people find it offensive?

RedRumtheHorse:
It's a nonsense term as it simply means everyone who is not white European.
.......
I too think it is silly, glad to know it isn't just me. I honestly can't think of any alternative though so will use it.

It's a nonsense term, because it means "you people who aren't white, whose ethnicities I cannot be bothered attempting to identify."

I sincerely doubt the risk of Covid-19 is the same for everyone who is BAME. Anecdotally, it looks like Indian people are more at risk - so by using BAME interchangeably with Indian, the stats are skewed, which is verging on dangerous and irresponsible.

If you drill down into the reports published by the Government, it's impossible to figure out what your risk is. They've lumped all the findings into "white" and "non-white". Yeah, genetics isn't as straightforward as that.

I would rather be described as Chinese or East Asian. Or, in the absence of being able to tell the difference between Chinese and, say, Pilipino, at least "non-white" is more honest. BAME implies you've put more thought into the description than you have. The term makes me feel bloody invisible.

If you are a black person living in the UK with an office job, you have a problem and become much higher risk.

If you are a white person doing the same, Vitamin D deficiency can still be a problem, Covid or no Covid.