BAME risk...It's not about ethnicity is it?

[MindTheRiskPlease]

Surely this whole "BAME" (nonsense term btw) people at risk of Covid is not about race ethnicity, is it?

If so, I don't see a great number of people being affected in "BAME" countries. Cases and Deaths are much much lower than that of the UK.

I live in a small town. Everyone is going about their business and following guidelines. Is 'the rona' coming to find me then because... "race" or is there more to it than that?

If two people (one "BAME", other not) come in contact with a covid patient, would the virus "choose" the BAME person and not the other? Wouldn't they both be at risk, depending on some factors? (What has ethnicity go to do with it?)

AIBU to think this whole "BAME people are more at risk" is a bit of a fallacious statement and has to be broken down to factors like geographical location, health, age, job, etc to actually be accurate?

There were far more white doctors/consultants working on the frontline than there were BAME (due to racism and education factors).

White, male, young doctors were also hit very hard with covid - although less died.

Also it wasn't such a news story to be made out of it so we heard less about them.

I don't think you can solely blame lack of vit D.
We can't take enough vit D into our systems whatever we do, black, white or Bame.
Our kids would need to take a full packet in one go to make much difference.

@Orangeblossom78

There is also higher risk in BAME from other viruses such as HIV for example so may be something genetic there...and also having those underlying problems would increase the risk too..

www.sochealth.co.uk/2020/07/12/covid-19-bame-communities-living-with-hiv-and-a-short-interview-with-dr-ameen-kamlana/

Interestingly one of the drugs used against COVID is useful against HIV too...

@Orangeblossom78 socioeconomic factors play by far the largest part in this.

As far as underlying problems increasing the risk go, as was stated very clearly in the video, for those of us stable on HIV meds there is no greater risk to us than in the general population. This would include the vast majority of those living with HIV in the UK. It is also well known that for anyone with underlying health conditions as in those who are immunosuppressed there might be an increased risk of being adversely impacted if they contract COVID-19. This would include those not yet on treatment/not yet diagnosed or just started who'r immune systems might be impacted.

I'm not sure what drug you heard that's been found useful for COVID as useful for HIV too - not sure if I missed something? HIV meds such as Kaletra, Darunavir & Truvada have all been trialled but none found to help COVID-19.

Great video - UK-CAB is a great trusted resource for those living with HIV and what it shares to the public. Very interesting point raised at the end by Rageshri Dhairyawan about unconscious bias.

I was thinking of Remdesivir?

Apologies if that is wrong though.

A person can be at risk because of their ethnicity (potential reasons for this re:covid that I have heard of: see my last post) but of course also there are other factors such as socioeconomic/ age/ racism which affect outcomes. It doesn't mean that the ethnicity is not a factor.

@MrsJBaptiste

Regarding the wearing of face masks, before it was compulsory in shops the majority of people I saw wearing them in the supermarket were black and Aisan families. I definitely felt that they thought they were more susceptible to Covid and so were taking the necessary precautions.

I was going to say exactly the same thing - I noticed this every time I ventured into a shop prior to 24 July. Obviously it's anecdotal but I reached the same conclusion as you - those groups were being more cautious than most white families because they'd heard about the greater risks.

Same experience here.

@Pelleas ditto

In Brooklyn the ultra- Orthodox Jewish community has been hit very badly. I suppose you could compare the way they live - insular, many community and extended family activities - with the way some communities live here. So in parts of Brooklyn people were continuing with funerals/weddings/celebrations in spite of lockdown, and obviously similar close contact activities were going on Leicester/Luton etc, eg the 250-person funeral.

For those of us who live in nuclear-family set ups and are creeping about in fear of a stray bit of virus flying around and striking us down, it’s difficult to grasp a different way of living. I think some leaders/religious leaders should be doing more to safeguard their communities.

So there may be something genetic involved in Covid susceptibility, but there is also a behavioural factor for some groups. The BAME people I know might well be more at risk, but are all sitting in the Home Counties in their detached houses and social distancing with the best of ‘em!

In my town when we were in lockdown, the people who were flouting it were young Asian males, when we came out of lockdown huge groups of Asian family's bigger than a group of 6 were meeting up in parks.

It is then taken home to their family's.

The question is are certain groups putting theirselves in positions where they are more at risk

There are a lot of issues connected with risk to being seriously ill with COVID or dying, and we don't yet have answers. It's not just the case that BAME people are more at risk than white people (and there are significant differences within the BAME communities as well). But men are also more at risk than women; this hasn't yet been explained either.

Obesity is clearly a massive issue, as we've heard recently. I've had long-term COVID symptoms and I accept that this is probably partly because I'm overweight. But is the reason that I didn't end up in an ICU unit because I'm a white female?

Hopefully we'll get a clearer picture in time, this is after all still a new virus.

Social factors are obvious a massive part of why we are seeing such a clear pattern of locations of outbreaks in the U.K. : Blackburn, Leicester, Rochdale, Oldham, Luton etc etc.

These are all urban areas with disproportionately high south-Asian populations and high levels of multi-generational households. It seems clear from the Leicester outbreak, in particular, that public health messages were either not being understood or were being widely ignored by far too many people in these groups.

I wish there was more evidence into mixed race people. I worry about my DS, as medical studies in general seem to categorise people as white black asian, and it leaves out all the different dual heritage people.
Things like asians need a different BMI chart, and are more prone to diabetes. What about black and asian, or white and asian people?
Will he need vitamin D supplements as a light skinned white and black Caribbean person? I dont know.
With mixed ethnicity being the largest growing ethnicity in the UK I think medical research needs to acknowledge their existence

Jewish genetics are interesting too, www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/tv7879

75% of jews have ashkenazi genes..

Ashkenazi Jewish genetic diseases are a group of rare disorders that occur more often in people of Eastern European (Ashkenazi) Jewish heritage than in the general population...

So may be a combination of genetics, and environment (living closely in groups)...

I suppose there are no end of permutations. My dns are so many ethnicities they’d need a ten-foot long chart to cover their risk profile, including Mongolian !

as medical studies in general seem to categorise people as white black asian, and it leaves out all the different dual heritage people.

Yep, it's one of the major reasons I think "race" has to be broken down. Just doesn't help beyond ticking neat little boxes.

I've just realise two or more posts have been deleted and I'm trying to remember what was said. The recent one I think mentioned their experience re: a group of people not wearing masks and i think if this is someone's experience, there's no need to delete it just because they mentioned a particular group. I didn't think they were being nasty, just stating their observation.

as I said, orangeblossom78, the ultra Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn have had a poor outcome, and they (originally) hail from Hungary I believe. But an investigation will try to uncover what is the balance between genetics and lifestyle. The outcome may only be 1% more than the general population, but the risk associated with unchecked household mixing may be 25% more than people who largely social distance.

Israel which has a high amount of Jewish I believe has not had great outcomes either...

forward.com/news/446220/do-jewish-genetic-diseases-increase-the-risk-of-covid-19/

@MindTheRiskPlease

With the deletion That's the problem and that's why it won't get solved because people don't discuss it.

During lockdown South Asian males were mor likely to get fined for lockdown, people were saying police were racist, people didn't ask the question which was were they breaking the rules more.

If you don't ask difficult questions then nothing will change.

So BAME people are more likely than white people to work in low-status, low-paid jobs (healthcare, public transport etc) therefore are more exposed than the "average" white person. The fact they are in those jobs, and not a nice middle-class work-from-home job, is due to systemic racism in education and in employment. Are you saying that this is an indirect cause so doesn't count as being due to ethnicity? I would strongly disagree...

Exactly what I was going to say, except I wouldn't have been able to put so concisely or eloquently.

During lockdown South Asian males were mor likely to get fined for lockdown, people were saying police were racist, people didn't ask the question which was were they breaking the rules more.

Did people ask the question ‘are BAME men breaking the rules more or are they policed more heavily than whites due to the police being racist?’.