To consider dating men who are less intelligent than I am?

[happylittletree]

Disclaimer: I know I sound like a dick.

I come from a very low class background and I have clawed my way into respectability and a decent living through sheer will and probably some measure of intelligence. In most of my life, I'm surrounded by intelligent and educated people.

I have gone through a terrible breakup and I would like to date again someday.

In a recent conversation with a lovely and very gay (male) friend, he seemed shocked that I wouldn't just go for a less intelligent man. I think he's done this.

I feel that there is a lot of cultural pressure for women to be with men who they consider to be superior in some way. I realise that I have totally internalised this.

Thoughts? Help...?

You definitely have a point about not all MD’s being intelligent! My next door neighbour is one and he is the thickest person I know. First I thought they were very inconsiderate but over time I realise how un-intelligent he actually is. My DH still doesn’t believe he’s an actual doctor. If I told you the things he did over lockdown you will not believe it (I think I need a thread but worried about being labelled a NHS basher). I realise how into stereotypes I was before as I thought most doctors were caring, considerate and highly intelligent people.

My point now to you is don’t go for what you usually go for. Lose your stereotypes and you will be surprised. The other side neighbour is not degree educated and a high school leaver who does a manual job. I have to tell you but I think he is the most intelligent and considerate man I know. Degree does NOT= intelligence.

We are a division species do in my opinion showing consideration and empathy and understanding of your fellow man/woman/thing/it is in my opinion sign of intelligence

Division? No I mean sociable

I’m seeing someone who always tells me he isn’t educated. What he means is that he doesn’t have any o levels or a degree. He is entirely self made, he’s business savvy, smart as they come and very successful. I have a degree and a really good high paying job but I don’t have any entrepreneurial spirit.

He’s as bright as they come he doesn’t read, he still works with a calculator and chequer book and couldn’t use a spreadsheet if he tried but he’s hot on current affairs, he understands the world and how it works and he’s streetwise. He doesn’t talk “posh” to my middle class accent but he’s one of the smartest and savviest people I’ve met in a long time.

Do you think @Whatthebloodyell might have it correct that you are actually looking for a more dominant man rather than more intelligent?

This could be cultural. I'm UK based so used to UK norms. I don't have any international experience in a dating/relationship context, but I have quite a lot of experience in a work context. I've found that US males were the worst at unacceptable aggressive and dominating behaviour towards women at work. So you may well have normalised this.

However, you are right - doctors are just as likely to be idiots as anyone else socially.

There's more than one way to measure intelligence.

I give you a tale of two brothers: Mr Practical - not academic but not daft either. He could look into why a machine wasn't working and repair it. He was a good driver, handyman and gardener.

Mr Clever - could learn many details parrot-fashion and pass exams but a complete chump about practical stuff. Because he knew he was clever he never made much effort, expected things to fall into his lap. A bit full of himself. I prefer the former.

It depends on how you define intelligence?
You say it's not all about qualifications or job title yet you describe coming from a lower class back ground and having to 'claw your way into respectability'. Respectable in whose eyes? Are you saying you don't respect those from lower class backgrounds? Sounds like you are to me.

I think most genuine couples are on similar level of intellect so you are bound to end up with someone of more or less the same level of intelligence. Intelligent people love having intelligent debates and discussing interesting stuff -mainly with their partner - so the chances of you going out with a dumb bloke are very slim.

It's also worth pointing out that some of the most obviously academic people can lack a lot of common sense and emotional intelligence.

This is bullshit, it's just what people say to make themselves feel better when they meet someone much more intelligent than them. It comes from the same place that means people assume all pretty or sporty people are thick. In reality there is some evidence that attractiveness, intelligence and sportiness tend to aggregate in certain people and other people are less blessed in all three areas.

As far as what people find attractive I think it's pretty normal for most people to pair off with those of similar 'value' to themselves so highly educated well paid professionals from middle class backgrounds tend not to form long term relationships with unskilled working class individuals on NMW (i.e. a professor is unlikely to marry a shopworker) , they just don't have much in common and tend not to meet. There's some flouting of that where individuals are very blessed in one area e.g. some extremely rich old men can attract young and extremely beautiful women.

@SockYarn

OP I totally get you. It's not about being superior/inferior. It's about having someone you can talk to on the same wavelength, about what interests you. If you're interested in current affairs, travel and politics you want someone who at least knows who Putin is and who knows where Egypt is.

I really struggle with a couple of my relatives who have the dire combination of lack of education and no interest in finding out about the world around them. When we visit, all they talk about is what the woman over the road said/did (who cares), and things like how busy it was at Home Bargains and the plot of Coronation St. It's bad enough for an afternoon but I couldn't imagine being in a relationship with someone who couldn't have a conversation above that general level of banality.

Oh my... Some of my extended family..... An afternoon is enough...as my pal calls them, 'aggressively dim' . If the woman down the road has flown to the moon.... Yes I want to hear.... But the intricacies of her family or patio laying.... I neither know or care about! Ffs.

It really isn't about education(although it often helps!) .. It's about curiosity, kindness and spark!

Why not go for someone, who is kind, amusing and cuddly?

A Labrador it is then.

*06happylittletree

I don't consciously worry about intelligence - it's just that if a man does or says something that I think seems unintelligent, I write him off.*

Bit harsh. We all say or do stupid things from time to time surely.

@cushioncovers
Whatever the question a labrador is always the answer

Generally speaking I prefer a man that’s not as intelligent as me. All my boyfriends haven’t been as smart as me. My current partner is quite good with maths/numbers due to his job but I’m definitely more intelligent overall particularly when it comes to reading/spelling/general knowledge.

You're over-thinking this, OP. I have never dated a man who wasn't intelligent (and by that, I mean quick witted, curious, creative, interested in the world, etc) - but I've never set out to date "intelligent men". I'm pretty clever, so I'm not likely to attract a dense man any more than he would be likely to attract me. I would just get on with doing the things you enjoy, and if you happen to meet someone you click with, so much the better.

A Labrador it is then.

That's what I did! DH doesn't mind.

OP, seriously. Don't overthink it. Sometimes navel-gazing can turn us into cats chasing our tails. Just go for someone you feel great with. A sense of humour is everything to me (the sillier the better, i.e. man slips on banana peel and farts type of humor... the more 'toilet' the better!).

I think there is a level of internalisation that you should look for a partner who is " superior" and i agree it's an odd thing often left over from history. I suspect i had it a bit hrowing up. I also suspect that sometimes it's an element of not wanting to be left with all of the life mental admin which often happens . My exdh was intelligent in many ways (he could fix and engineer so many things and was far more organised in his own way) but he was less traditionally academic than I was . This meant a lot of things were left to me ,moving house , contracts , well anything really that say outside of his own known skillset. I was seen as the more intelligent (by old school irrelevant indicators as I had a degree whereas he had no GCSE's...we all know that doesnt mean intelligence but he viewed that it meant I had the ability to do some things whereas I was in fact winging it)

It meant I got left with the majority of life decisions. As life would have it when our marriage ended I met DP who is very much evenly matched in terms of problem solving , intellectual curiosity but I can understand the temptation not to be seen as the most capable or intelligent in a relationship because everything gets left to you.

I will say , I hadn't overly seen intellectual curiosity as an issue in relationships until I met my DP. I am an avid learner and reader. I enjoy debate about current issues , debate over books etc. I hadn't honestly seen it as a problem as such with exdh , it just wasn't his interest and that was fine , I wasn't much interested in fixing motorbikes. However since meeting DP I have realised how much pleasure and commonality I have with him that he is on par with me. (Err which is categorically not to say we agree....we don't , we have remarkably different views on some things he is convinced a lot of human behaviour comes down to game theory I argue it's more based on internal societal script ). I personally think I was missing out not having a partner who had the same level of intellectual curiosity as me but it wasnt the same as same level of intelligence.

Do I think similar levels of intelligence in a relationship are important? Yes, definitely. I’d get bored and frustrated if my partner was lacking.

Do I think about whether a person is clever enough for me before a first date? Nope, because i have no idea how clever they are.

I’m a bit confused about your post OP. You seem to be saying you’d discount somebody straight off the bat if you don’t think their intellect measures up. If that is what you mean then yeah, I think you’re a bit up yourself. If you mean however that you would discount somebody later on if they didn’t turn out to have the intelligence to keep you interested then no, I don’t think you’re being even slightly unreasonable.

The issue I do take with your OP however is that you say you have a lowly background and you’ve clawed your way to respectability. That’s just pure snobbery. My circumstances aren’t great but I’m still perfectly respectable, and so are most people, even if it isn’t reflected in their tax bracket.

Degrees and qualifications do not a clever person make either. I am more than a match for even the most well educated person, and I have relatively little in the way of formal qualifications. Sure they might be very knowledgeable in their chosen area which I might know nothing about, but when it comes down to being able to absorb, process and understand information and concepts I’m as sharp and incisive as anyone, and so are many people.

I think it’s worth also mentioning that intellectual snobbery is an incredibly unattractive trait. Many people who think they’re super intelligent aren’t nearly as intelligent as they think they are, and the likelihood of this being the case has a direct correlation to how often they tell you how intelligent they are.

I am more than a match for even the most well educated person and I have relatively little in the way of formal qualifications.

How can you possibly know this?

I think it’s worth also mentioning that intellectual snobbery is an incredibly unattractive trait. Many people who think they’re super intelligent aren’t nearly as intelligent as they think they are

And yet you've spent the previous part of your post claiming to be 'more than a match for even the most well-educated person'.

it would depend on what you mean by intelligence. I think its best to find someone you can share some interests, have comfortable communication with, can have interesting chats where you both learn from each other and fancy each other.
You dont both need to have the same IQ, and as you say, people can be really successful in their own field, but you just dont gel on a conversational level.
I couldnt maintain a relationship with someone who was thick or narrow minded or vaccuous though

Just to be clear, I don't think that someone who makes less money or doesn't have advanced degrees isn't respectable. That was badly phrased. Sorry.

I was thinking a bit of my father and stepmother, who are neither well-educated, nor do they have any common sense or street smarts.

Their house is always a wreck, they piss away any money they get their hands on, and they are basically a model of how not to live. (But even they are respectable - they're just dumb).

My father actually is interested in history and can have a good conversation about interesting ideas. But there's something lacking which causes him to make such bad decisions.

Their house is always a wreck, they piss away any money they get their hands on, and they are basically a model of how not to live. (But even they are respectable - they're just dumb).

My father actually is interested in history and can have a good conversation about interesting ideas. But there's something lacking which causes him to make such bad decisions.

@happylittletree, I'm currently researching a novel and spent yesterday discussing his family history with a local aristocrat -- the men of his family at least have had the most privileged upbringings and prestigious possible educations since the 17thc, and yet have made endless bad decisions leading to them losing all their money, being jailed on spectacularly stupid grounds for criminal undertakings etc. It's pretty much a dysfunctional Eastenders family saga over hundreds of years, only everyone has titles, went to Cambridge and has portraits in court dress.

If I waited for someone more intelligent than me I expect I’d have been single a very long time.

@happylittletree

Just to be clear, I don't think that someone who makes less money or doesn't have advanced degrees isn't respectable. That was badly phrased. Sorry.

I was thinking a bit of my father and stepmother, who are neither well-educated, nor do they have any common sense or street smarts.

Their house is always a wreck, they piss away any money they get their hands on, and they are basically a model of how not to live. (But even they are respectable - they're just dumb).

My father actually is interested in history and can have a good conversation about interesting ideas. But there's something lacking which causes him to make such bad decisions.

I think you're very mixed up about this. I get the feeling if a man acted superior to you, telling you your opinions were wrong and bulldozing his own into you, then you'd almost assume he was smarter than you and be attracted to that.

Whereas a man who actually is intelligent and is secure in that would have a more calm and gentle debate or be able to agree to disagree, but you would mistake that quiet confidence for weakness or lack of intelligence.

This is going to sound harsh but while you sound perfectly intelligent, you don't sound like you're an intellectual powerhouse so I don't think it's anything to do with people being intimidated or there not being enough people who can 'match' you.

I think what you're perceiving as intelligence is probably a man with bullish confidence in what may or may not be a correct opinion.

I would certainly date someone who was less qualified than me or had a less prestigious job, however I probably wouldn't date someone less intelligent. I think I would get bored or frustrated. You can't always tell immediately though so definitely worth dating different types of men.

As a transgender woman I have to be careful and generally prefer to meet men who seem to be classy and educated - maybe that's wrong Indont know.
But earlier this year I was out having a drink waiting for a friend when I was approached by a man who really worried me, shaved head tattoos and not my type at all. I couldn't have been more wrong, he was one of the most charming polite men I've ever met and I did accept his request for a date.
Not as "educated" as me but the sort of man I'd want, so dont have preconceptions is all I'd say