12 year old arrested

[Pixxie7]

Do you think the police acted appropriately given that they had a tip off that a boy was waving a gun around.

[quote mathanxiety]@itsgettingweird

So they made a call saying they saw a gun on a sideboard?

Blimey.[/quote]
I don't what what the caller said. No one does.

Just mum said he had it in his hands/lap and then it was sideboard when caller passed to check 10 minutes later.

@mathanxiety

And are you implying ('changed her story') that you find it suspicious that the mum didn't know if her son was asleep or perhaps just lying down on his way to sleep?

There is nothing to see here, as they say.

When I said goodnight to my teen DCs I didn't sit with them until they fell asleep. I assumed they fell asleep but I never actually knew what time that happened.

No I'm implying nothing. But it's odd mum seemed to suggest som sleeps on sofa and then changed her story to just laying down.

And yes, it's odd a child sleeping on a sofa at 12yo whilst other family are upstairs in bed - and that it's done with a bloody BB gun in the room

How do we suddenly know this “gun” was on a sideboard?

[quote mathanxiety]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

It is not illegal to have a BB gun 'in view of a public street'.
It is illegal to be in possession of one outside on the public street or in any public place. Please stop getting these important distinctions mixed up.

It is not appropriate to respond to a sighting of a possible handgun which was on a sideboard in view of a public street when the call was made.

The assessment that the gun was a handgun capable of harming others was made and the reasons for that assessment, as well as the entirely inappropriate arrest of the boy even though they had determined it wasn't a handgun need to be examined.

There is a huge middle ground between ignoring the report and sending heavily armed officers to point their weapons at a family disturbed from their sleep and arresting a child even after it was established that it wasn't a handgun.[/quote]
Mathanxiety,
Really
The passer by could not have known it was a BB gun as it was made in imitation of an illegal hand gun. It is also an illegal imitation as a PP said because the law requires imitation guns to be 51% a bright colour and the blue colour it had is not one of the permitted colours.

Not appropriate to respond to a report of an illegal handgun because it’s been momentarily set down on a sideboard? What is it? Thor’s hammer and can’t be picked back up?

Wrong. The 12yr old was arrested before they searched the house and found the BB gun. Once they found it, he was released. He was never even taken to the station or booked in or anything.

The mum said BB guns should be banned if kids shouldn’t use them, what a weak excuse. Why in this day and age would you let your kids play with guns? She’s after compensation.

Why does the fact he is in his house change anything? He could have been contemplating killing himself, or was just messing around with a gun and could accidentally hurt himself, or was planning on hurting his family (unfortunately not unknown).

Because you’re not allowed to have a air soft BB gun in a public place but you are allowed to have it in your home. So tired of repeating basic facts.

And the mum saying they could have knocked the door and asked her about the gun, the police didn’t know it wasn’t a real gun. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

Actually I've made quite a good number of reports to the police (my memory is being jogged now) many years ago in a different town and region. My neighbour was ALWAYS getting in a spot of bother with different people and they always came looking for him. He would always thank me the next day or whenever he saw me for 'protecting' him even though I never mentioned I called the police. Said he knew it would have been me (our flats shared a wall). Poor promising lad (young adult, past teens) but made terrible decisions.

Never once mentioned ethnicity of the people when I called. I know at any time during those reports, I could have mentioned ethnicity but I suppose I didn't think it was relevant or something.... I don't know...it just never came up.

I was never asked either. So....

@Cadent

Why does the fact he is in his house change anything? He could have been contemplating killing himself, or was just messing around with a gun and could accidentally hurt himself, or was planning on hurting his family (unfortunately not unknown).

Because you’re not allowed to have a air soft BB gun in a public place but you are allowed to have it in your home. So tired of repeating basic facts.

Again, as far as the police knew it was a real illegal handgun and not an illegal imitation BB gun.

@Cadent

Why does the fact he is in his house change anything? He could have been contemplating killing himself, or was just messing around with a gun and could accidentally hurt himself, or was planning on hurting his family (unfortunately not unknown).

Because you’re not allowed to have a air soft BB gun in a public place but you are allowed to have it in your home. So tired of repeating basic facts.

The most basic fact and relevant fact here is that nobody knew it was a BB gun until after the event.

[quote mathanxiety]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

It is not illegal to have a BB gun 'in view of a public street'.
It is illegal to be in possession of one outside on the public street or in any public place. Please stop getting these important distinctions mixed up.

It is not appropriate to respond to a sighting of a possible handgun which was on a sideboard in view of a public street when the call was made.

The assessment that the gun was a handgun capable of harming others was made and the reasons for that assessment, as well as the entirely inappropriate arrest of the boy even though they had determined it wasn't a handgun need to be examined.

There is a huge middle ground between ignoring the report and sending heavily armed officers to point their weapons at a family disturbed from their sleep and arresting a child even after it was established that it wasn't a handgun.[/quote]
So a person sees what looks exactly like a handgun.

They phone police and report it.

What should pice do? Ignore it because it might be a BB gun? Of course it might not be but hey, let's not worry about that right?

What should the police have done in your view?

Possibly but an internal enquiry found proper procedure had been followed. Obviously the external complaints department will draw their own conclusions.

@PlanDeRaccordement

For the last time, the police response was a generic response for any situation of person + illegal gun. You are speculating that the assumption was harm to others. I’ve said over and over, all the police rightly presumed was that he might be a danger to himself or others and so they responded accordingly.

So you are still sticking to your ridiculous suggestion that the police were concerned that the boy was about to commit suicide?

Are you aware that there is a difference in protocol between responses for 'danger to self' and 'danger to others'?

Guns were trained on the girls and the family were ordered to put their hands up and get out of the house, and the boy was arrested.

This was not a response that had concern about suicide behind it.

The toleration or even the applauding of disproportionate responses indicate that the UK is sliding rapidly toward American levels of callousness and brutality.

Agreed, and many people are comfortable with that as they don’t they will be the target for it.

There is a huge middle ground between ignoring the report and sending heavily armed officers to point their weapons at a family disturbed from their sleep and arresting a child even after it was established that it wasn't a handgun

Is there? Whats the middle ground between no response and an armed response? Sending an unarmed Bobby in to get shot?

And yes, it's odd a child sleeping on a sofa at 12yo whilst other family are upstairs in bed - and that it's done with a bloody BB gun in the room

Right, he's a 'child' when we think he's sleeping on the sofa but 'he's not a young boy but an older boy' when he is seen with a bb gun and being accused of 'something' - what we all agree we don't know.

I wish some would make up their mind on their perception of this boy/man/child/big strapping lad/ older 17 year old looking boy/whatever instead of running rings round it.

^to @mathanxiety

@Nicknacky

How do we suddenly know this “gun” was on a sideboard?

We don't. It's what mum said in her interview with channel 4 news.

She said passed by saw gun on sofa with boy on laptop and when they passed 10 minutes later it was on the side.

itsgettingweird Thanks,mil was reading math’s posts as if that was gospel and I thought I had missed something.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
What should the police have done in your view?

I have posted what they should have done.

They should have asked detailed questions of the caller who reported it, for starters.
You can go back over my posts yourself and find what I have said.

Also - and I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand - they shouldn't have arrested a twelve year old child who had not pointed the gun at anyone, who had not waved the gun around, after they knew it was a BB gun.

@Andthewinnerislucky

And yes, it's odd a child sleeping on a sofa at 12yo whilst other family are upstairs in bed - and that it's done with a bloody BB gun in the room

Right, he's a 'child' when we think he's sleeping on the sofa but 'he's not a young boy but an older boy' when he is seen with a bb gun and being accused of 'something' - what we all agree we don't know.

I wish some would make up their mind on their perception of this boy/man/child/big strapping lad/ older 17 year old looking boy/whatever instead of running rings round it.

With regards the looking older what posters - including me - were staying is the picture used in the media portrayed someone who looked very different in real life.

He looks older than a child as is quite mature looking for his age.

But he's 12 - so still a child.

I will also use child and young lad intermittently. That's because in my line of work we actually refer to children above senior school age as young person.

It's more to do with whatever words come to mind than seeing a difference in the person.

[quote mathanxiety]@PlanDeRaccordement

For the last time, the police response was a generic response for any situation of person + illegal gun. You are speculating that the assumption was harm to others. I’ve said over and over, all the police rightly presumed was that he might be a danger to himself or others and so they responded accordingly.

So you are still sticking to your ridiculous suggestion that the police were concerned that the boy was about to commit suicide?

Are you aware that there is a difference in protocol between responses for 'danger to self' and 'danger to others'?

Guns were trained on the girls and the family were ordered to put their hands up and get out of the house, and the boy was arrested.

This was not a response that had concern about suicide behind it.[/quote]
Honestly, you are being ridiculous.

They were investigating reports of a person with a gun. Of course they need to secure the property, you know, in case someone with a gun suddenly appears.

This is the risk you take when you choose to let your child own an imitation firearm. It's meant to be 51% bright colour to help prevent these incidents. It wasn't.

Also - and I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand - they shouldn't have arrested a twelve year old child who had not pointed the gun at anyone, who had not waved the gun around, after they knew it was a BB gun

He was arrested before they searched the house. Then he was de-arrested when they discovered it was a BB gun. I'm not sure what else they could have done.

None of us know what was said, and what actually happened

Quite - and yet to read the thread you'd think some had actually been there

A lot of this will have to wait on the enquiry, and the officers present will have info that none of us do. Some of it will probably include the response of the family members on the actual night, which may or may not shed light on the approach taken

@mathanxiety

How do you know that they didn't ask detailed questions of the caller?

How do you know that at the time of arrest the police knew it was a bb gun?

(Genuine questions - maybe this has been confirmed and I've missed it?)