12 year old arrested

[Pixxie7]

Do you think the police acted appropriately given that they had a tip off that a boy was waving a gun around.

@mathanxiety

This isn’t the US. *@Mummyoflittledragon*

The toleration or even the applauding of disproportionate responses indicate that the UK is sliding rapidly toward American levels of callousness and brutality. Or should I say 'back toward American levels of callousness and brutality'? Calls for the reinstatement of hanging have never gone away.

And let's not forget that NI is part of the UK and saw the presence of a heavily-armed military force for approximately 30 years, and armed police for its entire history, something which nobody seems to have learned anything from. The sort of policing which became the norm in NI is now being visited on the island of Britain and the response from targeted communities will be similar.

'Black male has gun' does not equal 'black male intends to shoot people'. The police response was proportionate only if they believed someone was being threatened.

The police should not have assumed that a handgun-like item seen through a window late at night was the real thing posing a threat to life. It is not illegal to have a BB gun in your home in the UK. The law is the same whether you live in a rural or urban area.

And with your comment "The police should not have assumed that a handgun-like item seen through a window late at night was the real thing posing a threat to life." I really must conclude that you are taking the piss. If you're serious then FFS

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

What we are saying is a witness saw a gun and reported it.
No waving it about then? No pointing it at anyone?
Are we clear on that? Can we all agree that those saying he was waving it around or pointing it at people are simply making stuff up?

The witness saw what he or she thought was a gun through a window at night. For reasons known only to the witness, a report was made to police that a 'black male' was in possession of a gun inside a house.

Handguns are illegal in England so there's no innocent reason for having one.
Handguns are illegal in England but many types of BB guns, some shaped like handguns, are not.
If the boy looked old enough to be a threat with a real gun then why not assume he was holding a BB gun? Does 'black male' figure in the assessment of the threat?

If he looked young, as in the photos that were released, then why make the call?
And why did the police not ask for a physical description of the person in possession of the gun - approximate height and build for instance, that would indicate to them whether they were dealing with a child, an older teen, or a grown man?

If they knew they were dealing with an individual of short stature who might well be a child, then their response was completely inappropriate, and arresting what they knew was a child of twelve even though they had determined that it was a BB gun was completely outrageous.

Price attended and secured the scene. Then the who, why, how, what questions can be asked. Ascertained that it was a BB gun that looks very muck like a real gun.
But the who, what, how, whatever, questions apparently were not asked and the boy, aged twelve, was arrested. Or they were asked and the boy was arrested anyway.
The securing of the scene you crow about involved pointing laser sights at the heads of small girls and their mother.
As a result there are lots of very appropriate questions that must be answered at the highest level, because what was done in the name of law and order looked like police who were out of order bringing the law into disrepute.
Nobody wins when this happens.

Good job met police.

This was a disaster from every possible angle.

Alternative - person sees gun, phones police, police say "ooohhh no. We know you said it's a gun but it might be a Wii controller or a remote control. We'll leave it, just in case"
Again
Alternative - report comes in, police ask pertinent questions such as demeanour of gun wielder, location, presence of others, height and build and other physical descriptors.
Also pertinent would be a question about how good a sighting the reporter got.

This is all because it would be a huge pity if you were to find yourself with a red dot on your forehead over a game of wii or simply because your TV remote needs a fresh battery.

Sauce for the goose will eventually be sauce for the gander.

Do you want to find yourself living in a police state? If you believe it wouldn't be all that bad because there would be fewer criminals on the streets then perhaps ask yourself how the police would determine who was a criminal before they started shooting, and how comfortable you might be about their calculations.

But no one here knows what was said on the original call, speculating is a bit pointless when you don't know the facts. It's possible it was someone walking by who through internalised prejudice phoned purely because it was a black male, but equally it probably wasn't. What do you suggest happens then? If someone calls and says exactly the same as we are assuming was said, how do you think police should respond?

Well we do know they walked past twice in 10 minutes. First time child was on laptop, alone in lounge with gun on lap.
Second time 10 minutes later it was on some kind of side board.

This came from boys mother herself.

She admits he was alone downstairs on sofa (she said sleeping and then changed it to laying down - actual thing isn't clear).

But no one here knows what was said on the original call, speculating is a bit pointless when you don't know the facts

This! No one here knows what the caller said, what they were asked, what checks police did... Maybe racism had a part to play (either from the caller or the police) and maybe it didn't. The vast majority of pps are just making assumptions based on their own prejudices either pro or anti police.

The illegal gun was a valid presumption based on the fact that legally 12yr old boys cannot get a license to own a handgun as they are minors and most handguns are illegal in the U.K

So I assume you are not buying the assertion of some posters here that this was a strapping lad who looked much older than his photos and that the photos are part of a cynical attempt to manipulate the media, @PlanDeRaccordement.

...many young people, even 12yr olds, have been known to live stream their own suicides.

The protocols they followed were 100% not a potential suicide response.

There was no assumption of a suicide threat here.

The response of the police to this call was based on the assumption of the black male being a danger to others, not himself.

And I agree no one knows what was said.

We know media reported that reports of black male with gun was made.

What hasn't been established is whether the black male description was volunteered or gained from the very set list of questions police ask to get a good and as accurate description as they can.

I said unthread when I reported to police a live incident I have description of the girls dress and hair colour, length and style. The things I'd thought to take note of.

The police asked me if they were white or what ethnicity.

I had to curtain twitch again to look. I hadn't even registered. She was white!

And the reason I wasn't standing staring from window is in didn't want neighbours to know or suspect it was me reporting it

The protocols they followed were 100% not a potential suicide response.

*There was no assumption of a suicide threat here.

The response of the police to this call was based on the assumption of the black male being a danger to others, not himself.*

Now who is speculating?

So his two older sisters are now "small children "

Pathetic

Again

Don't buy your kid a replica gun
Don't whinge about police responding to it
Be a parent

Well done police.

@itsgettingweird

So they made a call saying they saw a gun on a sideboard?

Blimey.

Handguns are illegal in England but many types of BB guns, some shaped like handguns, are not.
If the boy looked old enough to be a threat with a real gun then why not assume he was holding a BB gun? Does 'black male' figure in the assessment of the threat?

Oh, for fucks sake. Very few people can tell the difference between a BB gun that looks like a handgun, and an actual handgun.
I don't know if his race was a factor. nobody does, although in fairness, it may well have been. That doesn't take away that the police had no way of knowing if it was a toy, a BB gun or a firearm.

And are you implying ('changed her story') that you find it suspicious that the mum didn't know if her son was asleep or perhaps just lying down on his way to sleep?

There is nothing to see here, as they say.

When I said goodnight to my teen DCs I didn't sit with them until they fell asleep. I assumed they fell asleep but I never actually knew what time that happened.

[quote mathanxiety]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

What we are saying is a witness saw a gun and reported it.
No waving it about then? No pointing it at anyone?
Are we clear on that? Can we all agree that those saying he was waving it around or pointing it at people are simply making stuff up?

The witness saw what he or she thought was a gun through a window at night. For reasons known only to the witness, a report was made to police that a 'black male' was in possession of a gun inside a house.

Handguns are illegal in England so there's no innocent reason for having one.
Handguns are illegal in England but many types of BB guns, some shaped like handguns, are not.
If the boy looked old enough to be a threat with a real gun then why not assume he was holding a BB gun? Does 'black male' figure in the assessment of the threat?

If he looked young, as in the photos that were released, then why make the call?
And why did the police not ask for a physical description of the person in possession of the gun - approximate height and build for instance, that would indicate to them whether they were dealing with a child, an older teen, or a grown man?

If they knew they were dealing with an individual of short stature who might well be a child, then their response was completely inappropriate, and arresting what they knew was a child of twelve even though they had determined that it was a BB gun was completely outrageous.

Price attended and secured the scene. Then the who, why, how, what questions can be asked. Ascertained that it was a BB gun that looks very muck like a real gun.
But the who, what, how, whatever, questions apparently were not asked and the boy, aged twelve, was arrested. Or they were asked and the boy was arrested anyway.
The securing of the scene you crow about involved pointing laser sights at the heads of small girls and their mother.
As a result there are lots of very appropriate questions that must be answered at the highest level, because what was done in the name of law and order looked like police who were out of order bringing the law into disrepute.
Nobody wins when this happens.

Good job met police.

This was a disaster from every possible angle.

Alternative - person sees gun, phones police, police say "ooohhh no. We know you said it's a gun but it might be a Wii controller or a remote control. We'll leave it, just in case"
Again
Alternative - report comes in, police ask pertinent questions such as demeanour of gun wielder, location, presence of others, height and build and other physical descriptors.
Also pertinent would be a question about how good a sighting the reporter got.

This is all because it would be a huge pity if you were to find yourself with a red dot on your forehead over a game of wii or simply because your TV remote needs a fresh battery.

Sauce for the goose will eventually be sauce for the gander.

Do you want to find yourself living in a police state? If you believe it wouldn't be all that bad because there would be fewer criminals on the streets then perhaps ask yourself how the police would determine who was a criminal before they started shooting, and how comfortable you might be about their calculations.[/quote]
Give over.

I don't care who was hiding the gun - man, woman, child, martian, dog, black, white, red and yellow with pink spots. What matters - gun. That's it. No, people shouldn't assume "oh it might be a BB gun". It looked like a gun assume it's a gun.

If you saw a child being dragged screaming into a car and the car driving off would you think "omg. That child could be being kidnapped, phone the police" or " oh. It looks like a kidnapping but it could be a child having a tantrum and dad's just pulled them into the car so I'll leave it, just in case I was wrong"?

You're being ridiculous. Everything that happened after the passerby saw it was as a result of boy having gun in view of a public street. No, the police shouldnt have ignored it. It might have been a real gun - London has issues with drugs, guns, crime and yes, involving 12 year olds with county lines etc.

Don't want armed police showing up? Don't give a child a BB gun that's indistinguishable from a real gun.

You're just speculating and presenting it as fact, it's boring now. None of us know what was said, and what actually happened.

Oh, for fucks sake. Very few people can tell the difference between a BB gun that looks like a handgun, and an actual handgun.

BINGO!

But the caller and the police assumed 'black male' meant it was a real gun and a danger to others, even though by the time the call was made the gun was on some sort of sideboard.

And the police proceeded on the basis of their flawed assessment of danger to approach the home heavily armed, to point their weapons at the family members, and then to arrest the boy even though they knew it was a BB gun at that point.

Math
It’s already been discussed at length the boy currently looks a lot older than the photos in the media. 11/12 yo boy had a big growth spurt. Not uncommon. His face has changed a lot. I think it’s fair to assume the caller may have thought he was older than his years and the report to the police reflected this. His mother referred to him as a young boy but as the parent of a child the same age, she is no longer a young girl...

My understanding is they arrested him before they know it was a BB gun.

@mathanxiety

And are you implying ('changed her story') that you find it suspicious that the mum didn't know if her son was asleep or perhaps just lying down on his way to sleep?

There is nothing to see here, as they say.

When I said goodnight to my teen DCs I didn't sit with them until they fell asleep. I assumed they fell asleep but I never actually knew what time that happened.

Well did you leave your 12 year ds (not teens, I know how you like accuracy) downstairs while you went up to bed for the night?

Would your twelve year old have opened the front door at midnight to person or persons unknown?

I've actually made a report to the police myself about an incident involving 2 men, one was brandishing a weapon and was seen leaving a neighbour's house. This turned out to be very serious because the police rang me about a month later to ask if I wanted to volunteer as a witness to the case. To which I declined and the police person was basically indirectly suggesting I shouldn't anyway. Not sure why but possibly to protect me, I assumed or to end the case...I don't know. I was surprised the case was still on and said so to the police. Ofcourse they couldn't give details but basically said it was serious and still going on.

Point is, I was never asked for ethnicity when I made that call. I gave description though but not ethnicity. So....different strokes for different police I suppose.

@mathanxiety

Oh, for fucks sake. Very few people can tell the difference between a BB gun that looks like a handgun, and an actual handgun.

BINGO!

But the caller and the police assumed 'black male' meant it was a real gun and a danger to others, even though by the time the call was made the gun was on some sort of sideboard.

And the police proceeded on the basis of their flawed assessment of danger to approach the home heavily armed, to point their weapons at the family members, and then to arrest the boy even though they knew it was a BB gun at that point.

What you don't seem to be getting is that the police can not afford to assume otherwise, black, white, asian or any other ethnicity. They had to assume that an armed person was in the house. They had no idea if there were other weapons or other people in the house with weapons. And lets not pretend a BB gun is harmless anyway. Shot at short range, they can maim and kill.

Would your twelve year old have opened the front door at midnight to person or persons unknown?

I didn't think armed police knocked nicely and asked to come in. More likely they booted the door in.

But the caller and the police assumed 'black male' meant it was a real gun and a danger to others, even though by the time the call was made the gun was on some sort of sideboard.

No, I should think the police had reports of a gun and thought "Camden? This could well be a real gun"

The protocols they followed were 100% not a potential suicide response. There was no assumption of a suicide threat here.The response of the police to this call was based on the assumption of the black male being a danger to others, not himself.

For the last time, the police response was a generic response for any situation of person + illegal gun. You are speculating that the assumption was harm to others. I’ve said over and over, all the police rightly presumed was that he might be a danger to himself or others and so they responded accordingly.

@DancingInDespair

Would your twelve year old have opened the front door at midnight to person or persons unknown?

I didn't think armed police knocked nicely and asked to come in. More likely they booted the door in.

Mum says he answered the door and then she came downstairs.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

It is not illegal to have a BB gun 'in view of a public street'.
It is illegal to be in possession of one outside on the public street or in any public place. Please stop getting these important distinctions mixed up.

It is not appropriate to respond to a sighting of a possible handgun which was on a sideboard in view of a public street when the call was made.

The assessment that the gun was a handgun capable of harming others was made and the reasons for that assessment, as well as the entirely inappropriate arrest of the boy even though they had determined it wasn't a handgun need to be examined.

There is a huge middle ground between ignoring the report and sending heavily armed officers to point their weapons at a family disturbed from their sleep and arresting a child even after it was established that it wasn't a handgun.