12 year old arrested

[Pixxie7]

Do you think the police acted appropriately given that they had a tip off that a boy was waving a gun around.

They asked me to describe the woman and when I said clothing etc they actually asked me skin colour.

I think that's fair enough. Skin colour is descriptive, as is hair colour, being fat or thin, etc.

There could been two women in similar clothing - skin colour might be the descriptor which allowes the right one to be apprehended.

People posting all these stories about similar things happening to white people are completely missing the point: it’s not that the police only respond to complaints about black people/arrest black people/consider black people more of a threat in this situation , it’s that they’re MORE LIKELY to do so. It happens more often to black people, and often more than once in their life. I find it interesting that many of the ‘my friend was white and x happened’ stories involve the friend being in a park or at an airport or out and about in general, rather than within their own home.

I do agree that children shouldn’t have BB guns (no-one should, actually). And I don’t know whether or not the racism aspect lies with the police themselves or with the person who made the report - I think it’s mightily strange that someone was just walking by at midnight and saw him through the window. More likely it was a neighbour or someone who heard the son or someone else in the family mention the BB gun and decided that night was a good time to call it in, as it would be taken more seriously.

Once the complaint had been made, yes, they had to take it seriously. The question is whether or not they considered it more of a priority due to the child’s race and whether or not they used proportionate force. Re the latter: they pointed guns at the other children in the house. I just don’t understand how anyone can excuse that.

Race may have made differences to the details of this case, but not to armed police responding to a report of a gun.

It’s a really, really bad idea to allow your pre-teen/ teen son to have a realistic gun. He runs the danger of being shot by the police if they think it’s real, but more worryingly you don’t want him to think guns, gun culture and gangs are glamorous. Whatever the colour of his skin. And probably more so if he is black.

There was a properly horrible ‘child with a toy gun’ incident someone wrote about on MN a few years back that was racist IIRC - it was clearly a toy in that case. This 12 year old is not the same thing at all - if you don’t want the police to think you’ve got a real gun, then don’t have a real(istic) gun.

I agree the arrest was OTT if they'd confirmed it was a toy gun, therefore a false alarm.

So something else is not complete in this story. Did they suspect a cover up or something and decided to give the boy a "routine scare and question" away from his home? Why?

I also agree that especially given the climate, I wouldn't let my child have a realistic looking gun. As you can see, anything can happen.

I do agree that children shouldn’t have BB guns (no-one should, actually).

It’s a really, really bad idea to allow your pre-teen/ teen son to have a realistic gun. He runs the danger of being shot by the police if they think it’s real, but more worryingly you don’t want him to think guns, gun culture and gangs are glamorous. Whatever the colour of his skin. And probably more so if he is black.

if you don’t want the police to think you’ve got a real gun, then don’t have a real(istic) gun.

All of the above.

I somehow completely missed that they arrested him AFTER establishing that the gun was fake. I assumed that they arrested him upon arrival at the house.
That makes it much worse. How, exactly, did they justify that decision??

@SimonJT

This is why as a brown child I don’t allow my son to have any form of toy gun.

And when I gave my DS his BB gun I was acutely aware that I was exercising white privilege.

@mathanxiety
In British society the boys mother absolutely made a grave mistake in giving her son a BB gun. I totally understand why you would think it normal or not a mistake to have done so. And I absolutely get why you wanted your ds to be able to use a firearm safely. You are in the US. I would likely do the same sadly based on your description of your locality. Allowing a 12 yo to possess and / or shoot a BB gun in the U.K. is neither normal nor legal; moreover it is irresponsible.

@Andthewinnerislucky

I agree the arrest was OTT if they'd confirmed it was a toy gun, therefore a false alarm.

So something else is not complete in this story. Did they suspect a cover up or something and decided to give the boy a "routine scare and question" away from his home? Why?

I also agree that especially given the climate, I wouldn't let my child have a realistic looking gun. As you can see, anything can happen.

The police probably needed to justify having an armed response, using laser pointers at a single mum and her children, and so arrested him despite it clearly being a fake. This is going to be investigated big time no matter what the police say.

I somehow completely missed that they arrested him AFTER establishing that the gun was fake. I assumed that they arrested him upon arrival at the house

Indeed.

What else were they supposed to do?

It's not clear whether they did this or not, but maybe they could ask the caller how close to the gun-wielding they were, how sure they were of what they saw, and whether there might have been anything interfering with their view?

Because as SchadenfreudePersonified said
Toy guns used to look like toy guns. Now they look very realistic - at least from a distance.

So what was the distance exactly, from which the passer-by could see the gun late at night?

What we see is filtered through our bias

I completely agree. And I am seeing more bias against the police than anything else on this thread.

Police vs Black family = police MUST have been in the wrong, amiright?

Except that automatically treating police actions as wrong harshens the racial divide and damages the ability of the police to provide policing to black communities. Which isn't good for those communities!

A safe community is one where the police are trusted to handle situations appropriately and do their job. Crime can't happen half so easily if there are dozens of witnesses ready to invite the police to attend and intervene.

In this case, the police acted reasonably, however much some bleat about the unfairness of a kid being entitled to wave a realistic looking weapon around in their house. As for "playing with" - I can't see how you play with a gun without pointing it at things or people. I can't speak for how old the boy looked, but I personally was taken for 16 as a tall and developed (white) 12yo. This was viewed through a window - not in a convenient screenshot.

SimonJT, it's a very silly comment to make. Most toy guns are vivid coloured(like nerf guns) and nothing like real. My child is a mixed race child, but never thought like you do.

[quote Cadent]@hadenoughbleach the big strapping lad![/quote]
Is that a recent picture? Only the boy in the TV interview looks older than this picture.

I think legally a child is supposed to have a coloured BB gun and an adult must buy it and supervise their child. Black ones look too real and you need to be 18 to use/purchase one.
The mother put her child in that position, blames the police for their reaction and now it's a race debate. Seriously!

In this case, the police acted reasonably

Ok. A couple of questions:

Why was it reasonable to arrest a child after it was established the gun was a toy?

Do you think it is unreasonable to examine and reflect on decisions involving minority communities- especially given the stats I posted up thread?

I'm a bit torn on this. I would never in a million years give my son anything that even looked like a gun. Black people know we don't get the same benefit of the doubt as white people and she's acutely aware that her son as a black male will be perceived more negatively than a white child.
This is the height of irresponsible parenting in my view.

As the for the police, the mum says in the channel 4 clip that they were right to respond but she expected them to politely knock on her door and ask if they had a gun in the house? What planet is she on????? The police will respond with force because they don't know the situation.

The arrest was unnecessary after having established that the boy wasn't a threat . However I can see why the police might still make the arrest because in all seriousness which 12 year old boy (black or white) has a BB gun in London? The thing looked very real. If he had pointed it at me I'd be terrified thinking it was real. It's something that he could have used to be menacing on the street. He's not in some country side where guns are normal.

All around I blame the mum for being an utter idiot

I'm sad that her son was traumatised because mum didn't know how to have the 'talk' with him that sadly too many black parents have to have with their sons mostly.

Similar happened with my nephew about 10 years ago cars in central London In a car 3 kids at the back one opened a toy magazine with a gun init and the next minute we’re getting pulled over by 2 armed police cars And he’s blonde hair blue eyed 5 year old white boy I think the person who reported it was having a laugh to be honest

@Mummyoflittledragon, DS wanted his BB gun to get in some shooting practice in hopes that he would be allowed to go shooting ducks with his grandfather, my late FIL (exUSAF) on some land he owned. He enjoyed his trips.

There is no way on god's green earth that he would ever consider possessing or using a gun for reasons of self protection in the urban area where we live. Any consideration of gun ownership on his part would be solely for the same purpose both of his grandfathers owned (registered and licensed) guns.

Escalation of gun ownership for 'self protection' is going to be a factor in the downfall of America.

@SchadenfreudePersonified

They asked me to describe the woman and when I said clothing etc they actually asked me skin colour.

I think that's fair enough. Skin colour is descriptive, as is hair colour, being fat or thin, etc.

There could been two women in similar clothing - skin colour might be the descriptor which allowes the right one to be apprehended.

Exactly. But there was no indication that the response would be different due to colour of skin. They asked for a description.

In this report the media are constantly reporting 'black boy' in the quotes. They are leading public to believe the police had reports of a black boy and it influenced their response. They may have asked for skin colour themselves.

We also haven't been told if the race, ethnicity or sex of the person who reported the crime or the police officers who responded.

We are being led into believing this was a racist response by the media reporting.

When the truth is that noBODY should - or even needs to be - waving a BB gun that looks very much like a handgun around whilst sat on a sofa in their lounge.

Recently a local teen was arrested and I believe charged with terrorism offences. I don't remember reading anywhere about this child's race in reports. I am therefore assuming he's white. But it's irrelevant. But I can't help thinking if he was black it would have been reported and wonder why race would actually be relevant? He broke the law and police acted accordingly.

In this case, the police acted reasonably, however much some bleat about the unfairness of a kid being entitled to wave a realistic looking weapon around in their house.

@thecatsthecats
'Waving it around', was he?

Where did you read that?

SmileEachDay, I maybe wrong. But why do you think you are right to tell me I am wrong?
I hope I am open minded enough to take in other people's opinions, and I wouldn't tell people they are wrong, just because their opinion differs from mine.

@SmileEachDay

In this case, the police acted reasonably

Ok. A couple of questions:

Why was it reasonable to arrest a child after it was established the gun was a toy?

Do you think it is unreasonable to examine and reflect on decisions involving minority communities- especially given the stats I posted up thread?

I would assume it was still ok to arrest him because it's already been established having a bb gun isn't legal either?

But I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

I had no idea bb guns were illegal. Our delightful 6yo neighbour stood at the end of our driveway a few weeks ago pointing and shooting one at my dc despite being asked not to. His mother's calling of his pet name failed to stop him so she just went back in Good to know I can tell him it's against the law.