12 year old arrested

[Pixxie7]

Do you think the police acted appropriately given that they had a tip off that a boy was waving a gun around.

It isn't because the child was black that racism is suspected, @CuriousaboutSamphire.

Two things don't sound quite OK here:

• what was the person who made the call to the police doing, spying on a child through their living room's window?
• the armed police just stormed in and started threatening everyone (apparently mostly kids?) in the house, on pure hearsay

From the second point I gather that if I want to make someone life's hell in that part of London, I just need to report seeing suspicious activity, and let the police do the harassing for me.

I believe the police acted in good faith based on the information they were given, but the person who reported "a man with a gun"? Not so sure...
And that makes the police's job all the harder.

I can see that people want to make it a racial issue, and maybe they are not wrong. But simple fact is, the police had done the right thing to take it seriously. If the police didn't respond because it was reported as white male, then they have made a big mistake. And I am not white.

Except the colour of his skin is relevant - the passerby reported “a black male” What do you expect? The police will have asked for a description. Colour of skin, sex, height, build, clothing are all relevant ESPECIALLY with a frearm involved.

If you read my post fully I did ask if the problem was that the passer by made an assumption... If that is the perceived issue then that needs to be discussed. Mainly because, again, there was a firearm involved and if society wants to make exceptiions to the law for whatever reason, then we should discuss it seriously!

It isn't because the child was black that racism is suspected Say what now?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I was just googling to see what the law is and found this

www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q334.htm

Please note that all calls to police involving firearms are treated as if it is a genuine firearm so be aware that if you do wave an imitation firearm around you could find yourself surrounded by firearms officers pointing real weapons at you.

The mother needs to read this. The reporter interviewing her should not have gone along with the line that it is a toy. A BB gun is a grey area and she is extremely irresponsible to let her child be illegally in possession of this BB gun. bbguns4less.co.uk/pages/bbguns-and-the-law.html Yes it is 2 tone. But is not brightly two toned. As such it was indistinguishable.

As for the photos on the bbc article, these don’t look terribly recent. Children often change exponentially around the age of 11/12 ie yr 7 (my dd is this age). In the photos posted, he looks about 10. In the interview with his mum, he could pass for 14.

The police didn’t overreact. The mother has taken no responsibility for a very poor parenting decision.

Absolutely not. It's disgusting behaviour from the police and it absolutely wouldn't have happened if he was a 12 year old white boy. They used guns with lasers.

I believe it would have happened to a white boy. These days they can take no risks. There are so many guns around, so many children being drawn into crime at street level, so many even very young children being prepared to use violence as a first resort, that they can't afford to fanny around.

Toy guns used to look like toy guns. Now they look very realistic - at least from a distance.

If you don't want your innocent child to have an experience like this, don't get him a real-looking toy - especially if it can fire projectiles of any type. Even a plastic pellet can put out an eye,

When my son was 9 (he's now 37) a neighbours' child of the same age, who had been bullying him, threatened him with a loaded air gun. He had also threatened my six year old daughter and tole her he would shoot our dog. I rang the police. The officers who came to the house were wearing full protective clothing and body armour - I commented and it is standard when a firearm - any firearm - is reported.

They took details, went to see the boy and gave him a good talking to (didn't arrest him, but the weapon was confiscated - his father had to go to the station later to get it back). That kid ended up crying - the entire family treated us all like sh*t for years as a result - but I would do it again.

The little toerag had been shooting birds with it, and had fired what he called "warning" shots at other children (including mine). I was the only one to report it.

Children do not need guns - they especially do not need guns that can fire a dart, pebble - anything.

The sooner this message gets through to people, the better.

Oh - and all the children involved were white.

Things have moved on in 20-odd years. Society is more violent. Maybe he would have been arrested if it had happened now - or maybe it was just that he was below the age of criminal responsibility (11) that prevented him from being arrested then.

You don't want your kids to have a criminal record? - don't give them a gun.

@Kaiserin many reports to the police are "pure hearsay" e.g., man with a gun seen entering an address / man with a gun on his kitchen table / man overheard in pub saying he had a gun at home / woman heard discussing with friend that her husband is keeping a gun for so - and so.

On your second point; malicious reporting will always be a problem but until established as malicious all reporting needs to be taken as well intentioned.

It’s important to accept the colour of skin does affect police response

I don’t know if it changed the police response in this case - but those of you saying it’s definitely not a race issue... The only way to tackle racism is to look it fully in the face and accept how much the colour of someone’s skin affects every interaction they have.

But no one knows who reported it- and whether it was done maliciously, solely because they are a racist or have an unconscious bias, or because it's an area with a high level of crime, and perhaps they're more wary. I was mugged at knifepoint when I lived in London, would I be more likely to report someone who appeared to be in possession of a knife than someone that hasn't experienced that? Maybe. If I lived somewhere with a high rate of burglaries and I saw someone in a house with a gun, would I be more likely to report it? Perhaps. It's good that gun crime is taken seriously, yes it was unpleasant for the family and thankfully everyone was unharmed (because our police are not comparable to those in the US); but it's a big issue in some places and needs to be dealt with as safely yet seriously as possible. The ideal solution would be investment in levelling out opportunities etc for everyone to make communities safer, rather than criticise the police. Of course they have to sometimes go on 'hear say', the other option would always be waiting until something had happened.

@SmileEachDay would you prefer that the passerby reported 'human being with gun'? The passerby (who could have been of any ethnicity whatsoever) reported what they saw and the police responded. If you're going into an armed situation you want as much information as possible so that you can make informed choices.
Manipulation by the media is not helpful. Notice that the photos chosen were of the child in his school uniform and one of him in a suit and bow tie. It seems pretty unlikely that he was wearing that at midnight when he answered the door to the police.
The police regularly respond to calls from members of the public of people being seen with guns and that will provoke an armed response on every occasion. Most of the time it won't be an actual gun, but they can't take that risk. The difference being is that these regular calls don't make there way to the press.
The title of these articles should have been 'adult makes poor parenting choices' but that's considerably less newsworthy and divisive.

And sadly, yes, race does play a part without question.

@SmileEachDay

It’s important to accept the colour of skin does affect police response

I don’t know if it changed the police response in this case - but those of you saying it’s definitely not a race issue... The only way to tackle racism is to look it fully in the face and accept how much the colour of someone’s skin affects every interaction they have.

⬆️ agree with this.

Arguing over every individual incident is deliberately done to minimise the overall issue.
Is every comment sexual harassment? No. Is sexual harassment widespread? Yes.

If we tackle the overarching issue, we reduce the number of incidents that happen. If we just argue about each individual incident, things will stay the same.

"The only way to tackle racism is to look it fully in the face and accept how much the colour of someone’s skin affects every interaction they have."

Only way to tackle racism is by not making everything racial issue, when there are more serious issue is behind.

www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/bb-gun-recovered-after-armed-17806062 from a very brief google. I'd expect armed police response to reports of a handgun. BB guns are not toys and I don't think they should be sold especially when it can be so hard to determine they're "just" airguns.

*ChibiTotoro

As I said - I don’t know whether race played a part.

I know it very often does, and the posters claiming it definitely haven’t are minimising it as an issue. The PCC will absolutely consider it as part of any investigation.

Look at the link I posted in my last post - there is an issue and it has to be addressed as often and as openly as possible.

Passer by reported a black male because he's black.

Police act on the information on a risk assessed basis not because of the description.

If they had reported a white male the protocols do not change.

I've rang police before to report a female (drink!) screaming abuse and smashing a front door down with a scooter at 6.30am.
They asked me to describe the woman and when I said clothing etc they actually asked me skin colour.

There is no denying there is some institutionalised racism within force. As there is within UK as a whole and also globally.

But police respond to reports from public. They cannot risk someone's life to stop and wonder if the report was from someone who themselves had racist bias.

But they do have other avenues available for people making constant unfounded claims.

When a very real looking firearm had been reported - that is not the time.

Off topic but Im a North Londoner and i thought his school (Maria Fidelis) was a girls school. But i dont have kids so maybe its changed.

Only way to tackle racism is by not making everything racial issue, when there are more serious issue is behind.

This.

It was ignoring child grooming and abuse because of fears of being called "racist" that led to the situations in Rochdale and Newcastle.

@xolotltezcatlopoca

"The only way to tackle racism is to look it fully in the face and accept how much the colour of someone’s skin affects every interaction they have."

Only way to tackle racism is by not making everything racial issue, when there are more serious issue is behind.

Totally agree

Only way to tackle racism is by not making everything racial issue, when there are more serious issue is behind

With respect, you’re wrong.

@xolotltezcatlopoca

mathanxiety, why are you so against this? Do you really think it's better for them to get huge settlement over this?
I am unequivocally against this because the UK police are on a slippery slope that is paved by the conviction that the end justifies the means.
It is very, very important that the family gets a huge settlement out of this, one so big that the police will have to rethink all aspects of their response to calls featuring 'a black male'.

What if the gun was real next time, and the life was lost?
The fact that the end is being used to justify the means may not affect the white majority yet, but it will, both directly and indirectly.
The police are there to serve all the members of the public, to protect the values of a free society, and to uphold the law that exists by means of an informal social contract involving a sense of mutual respect; that respect will be destroyed if the means of protecting society embodies the values it seeks to protect the society from. The threat of the ultimate sanction has no place in civilised policing.

It's black men and youths who are experiencing the sharp end of the wedge now, but once the principle of massive force is established as a protocol in response to calls it can and will be directed against anyone.

I live in a city where the police always assume that the gun is real, and they frequently shoot. If you think a policy of heavy handedness will have a good effect on gun crime, then I recommend you look at the history of that approach in almost every American city, though I can save you a lot of time by telling you that it only makes everything far, far worse. When policing starts to look as if it is carried out to safeguard the interests of only one section of society, with another section disproportionately targeted, society is in deep trouble. The appearance of fairness and impartiality is essential to the maintenance of respect for the law.

Don't you even agree that mother made a mistake to give 12 years old realistic looking bb gun that can actually hurt others?
No, I don't.
I gave my own 12 yo DS a BB gun 15 years ago. He set up empty cans in the back garden and shot pellets at them. I taught him the basics of gun safety, as taught to me by my exRAF father who enjoyed a weekend of shooting now and then, out in the country in Ireland. DS never hurt a single living thing with his BB gun.

There are lots of things that can hurt others that you can (and maybe should) give to an older child, teach them to use properly, and allow them to learn to be responsible.

This is why as a brown child I don’t allow my son to have any form of toy gun.

Do the police do a de-brief session with people in these type of situations ?

As another Poster said..Even BB gun sellers say they are NOT TOYS and give reams of info.

They also state the black guns are much riskier than the multicoloured red/blue ones.

As posted by another MN member:

bbguns4less.co.uk/pages/bbguns-and-the-law.html

Fuck being a police officer in this day and age.
A member of the public reported it.
What else were they supposed to do?

The mother of the child is to blame here.