To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

[KatieAlcock]

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

And yet, some girls prefer girls only football, just as some boys prefer boys only dancing. Both are legal and girls who play football are well aware it's something boys are more likely to do.
In our local Scouts, women usually lead Beavers, men usually lead Scouts.

@TheFormerPorpentinaScamander

Whats enby?

non binary ...nb...enby...

@Yawwwwwwwn

Where's the eyeroll emoji.

So, it's unsafe to potentially have anyone who doesn't identify as female AND have been born with female genitals between their legs, in a well supervised hall for activities?

We don't have any Brownies who don't fit that description. But if we did, I don't see how this would be a problem.

As for this obsession with showering together... I honestly don't know what camping policy would be but I would assume there is protocol for this situation should it arise.

Because safety is paramount.

This whole thing really grinds my gears.

I'd be more worried about how I manage being a leader whilst also being in a wheelchair.

"So, it's unsafe to potentially have anyone who doesn't identify as female AND have been born with female genitals between their legs, in a well supervised hall for activities?"

Nobody is saying it's unsafe to have a male in a hall with girls. not one person. We have male teachers, male coaches, male priests.... makes no difference what is in their pants in that situation.

But what DOES make a difference is the ability for girls to be open, free and honest amongst men. Society pushes gender stereotypes, girls are told day in day out that science is for boys.... boys are stronger, faster...boys are global leaders....boys are engineers.... boys are brainy....boys like pretty girls... girls must wear make up, have soft skin, do their hair nicely to attract boys... (Why else do we wear make up, if not to look more pleasing to the opposite sex?)

In a girls only space, they are free to be girls. Just people, without worrying about feeling silly in front of a boy etc.
I am a Girl Guide leader and have seen the difference with my own eyes on many occasions. In a group of just girls, they take charge, they lead, the organise whole events and run them successfully, at camp they build fires, erect tents, do rock climbing, build rafts etc.
We camped next door to a scout camp one summer... and all of a sudden these girls, who we'd camped with in May half term and did all the above - turned into "silly girls" - they giggled at the boys, claimed they couldn't build a fire, so can the scouts do it for them? They were making sure their hair was just right, didn't want to do some of the activities, because their clothes might get dirty... the only difference was that boys were around.

If an organisation for females is allowing the rights and feelings of males to be put above those of the females they claim to be supporting, then it's fundamentally opposing their aims and potentially putting their target members at a disadvantage or excluding them.

How is this a safeguarding issue

How is this an issue at all

If GG allowed men to become leaders, and boys to become members and share tents with girls without any safeguarding measures and without parents being aware, would you think that was an issue?

If so, when does the risk go away with a male self identifying as female?

Or are you denying the demonstrable fact that men as a class pose more of a risk than women as a class?

Why would an organisation for children bring in any major change without considering the safeguarding implications and amending their policies accordingly?

As for this obsession with showering together... I honestly don't know what camping policy would be but I would assume there is protocol for this situation should it arise

Why would there need to be a protocol? Is there something different about one of the members?....

Funny how people who accuse others of over reacting or pretend they don't see a problem bang on about policies and protocols.... ita as they think that extra layer offers a protection from what are really saying which is if there's a member if the opposite sex attending (that by the way no-one is meant to know about and the girls gaslit into thinking its still all girls), there needs to be something in place.

Which is precisely what we are saying really. That if an organisation is mixed sex then it should be advertised as such, parents and children would know and the relevant safeguards put in place.

But that's not what's happening is it.

@Yawwwwwwwn so in your opinion, who should be a Guide (Rainbows up to leaders)?
Boys and girls, men and women?
Or female children and adults (so that's both you and me but not Debbie who is male nor Chris who's male and identifies as non binary)?
Or anyone who identifies as a woman or girl (so that's not you, nor me)?
Or different for girls and leaders?

@Yawwwwwwwn

Where's the eyeroll emoji.

So, it's unsafe to potentially have anyone who doesn't identify as female AND have been born with female genitals between their legs, in a well supervised hall for activities?

We don't have any Brownies who don't fit that description. But if we did, I don't see how this would be a problem.

As for this obsession with showering together... I honestly don't know what camping policy would be but I would assume there is protocol for this situation should it arise.

Because safety is paramount.

This whole thing really grinds my gears.

I'd be more worried about how I manage being a leader whilst also being in a wheelchair.

My understanding of this issue is that parents will not be told that their girls may share a tent with a boy however he identifies

Personally, i do not have a problem with male children who identify as girls going to guides and going on camp as long as parents are informed and can make an informed choice

Its the secrecy i don’t like

Dd was in beavers and cubs....the Male cub leader Could not go in the girls tent and a female leader/helper always went on camp, this was about 8 years ago though

Which is precisely what we are saying really. That if an organisation is mixed sex then it should be advertised as such, parents and children would know and the relevant safeguards put in place

Exactly

Oh i should really say I completely understand that some girls would not be able to join the guides under those circumstances

I would absolutely support Any girl to be be in a single sex Group

I would absolutely support Any girl to be be in a single sex Group

Absolutely. I also support boys having a single sex space too but thats something they need to sort for themselves . Rather than men push to infiltrate guides by stealth.

But I guess you can call women bogots for not accepting it in the guides. And then carry on blamimg women for taking away the scouts. How about they take responsibility for the fact that they weren't interested and did nothing to keep their space and now they wanna take away ours.

Same shit different day.

I'd want my daughter to attend groups which include people, not full of bigots

Do you REALLY want that?

Would you be happy for your dd (who I realise may be hypothetical) to sleep in the same tent as someone with a rape conviction?

Imagine you have a 15 year old daughter, would you allow her to go on holiday with her boyfriend? Why? If he self IDs as a girl he can go to camp with your dd and share a sleeping space.

A teenage boy can now self ID as a girl and there is no DBS check for girl guides.

We discriminate against some people and some situations legally and legitimately for good reasons.

I cannot think of a better reason to discriminate against some people to keep children safe.

If you have a child with a disability who cannot use the stairs at school you will often find they have a 'lift buddy' another child who goes in the lift with them, this is so the child is never alone with an adult, it protects the child from an abusive teacher and stops false allegations against teachers.

You are naive if you think abusers will not use this loophole of Self ID to abuse.

You are naive if you think abusers will not use this loophole of Self ID to abuse

Not forgetting that the advice was contributed to by someone who had to step down from a job due to links with pedophiles . Their dad is in prison for raping a 10 year old girl. The dad was also a scout leader. This person was also found incompetent for safeguarding by veritas and is now married to someone who posted paedo shit on twitter.

But yes everyone's a bigot.

katie Thank you for everything you’re doing. Thank you.

My Dd doesn’t attend GG anymore because of this stance. I am appalled. Girls should access female only spaces, of course they should! The current guidelines are absolutely wide open for child abusers to run rampant with. The cases will be few but who can be happy with that? Oh yeah sally was a man before and we can’t access their dead name to DBS check. I heard he used to go by the name Dave and used to abuse his 2 nieces the next town over. But that’s gossip and now Dave is sally so let’s all go camping!

This stance harms trans/non binary gender fluid individuals. It doesn’t protect them either and puts them in vulnerable situations. The only people this policy benefits is abusers.

Hi SarahTancredi, Challenor announced they’d contributed to the GG policy but GG never confirmed this.

Our favourite extreme porn advocate and wiping hard drive instructor also didnt confirm or deny they contributed either.

I wonder why no one is naming who they consulted with....

@KatieAlcock - I'm afraid I've not RTFT so apologies if this has already been covered:

My understanding is that at the start of your discussions with GG, their stance was in one respect explicitly transexclusionary - they were showing girls who identified as boys the door. Have they altered their position on this at least? If so - credit to you; if not then shame on them. There are good reasons for single sex organisations to be allowed; there is surely no possible justification or legal basis to convert it to a 'single gender' one.

Sarah I’ve been trying to find the names too! Can’t find them now because Katie has been trying to fight this for so long.
This is from 2017, not my choice of paper but not paywalled. Compensatory cute pic of Princesses in uniform
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4144118/BOYS-Girl-Guides-think-wrong-gender.html

Scouts also only became mixed sex because there weren't enough men stepping up to run them. Either they closed down the units or women could step in and help run them but that would mean they would have to have their kids come too.

This isn't true.

It was because not enough boys where joining the scouts and lots of girls wanted to.

It wasn't because not enough men were stepping up.

@KatieAlcock

I genuinely hope that you win this.

Safeguarding is not something that should be changed.

Thanks fir the correction fripp

Either way it was voted on and they chose to allow girls rather than close.

With guides there are often waiting lists so numbers were never an issue .

Alot of peope seeiously seem to keep missing the point though. The inclusion of boys is one thing . But the girls are being told they are girls. Hell the boys joining are being told they are girls. No one beneifts from the lies. And as pp points out. The kids are all male or female their identity wont change what safeguarding needs to be put in place and neither child wins when an abuser exploits the loophole.

Whatever you're stance on single sex status safguatding should still matter to you and allowing leaders to self ID into becoming leaders is an obvious risk.

Also worth nothing self ID is not law.

noting

Stupid auto correct

SarahTancredi

I should also put that I agree that it was nothing to do with women or feminism.

The Scouts where taking a big financial hit and decided to let girls in.

Women have been taking the flak for that decision for too long.

I have huge sympathy for your position and hope you win
As far as the legal position is concerned it is common for the Company/organisation in a situation like this to lawyer up
This is because it is a test case for them
They want to mount the strongest possible case
Then either they win ,which puts them in a stronger position with other cases,or they lose,and then they can settle other cases/amend their policy or whatever
Either way they probably save on legal fees in the long run

Why would a convicted rapist be in a tent with ANY children? Where do you get that from? A DBS check requires all former names used from birth. Has this actually happened before and if so, can you provide the details, links to the facts? Because it's quite sick to pigeon hole people as being rapists for merely being trans.

I can answer who I think should join GG but I'm not GC and I'm also newer to leading and so my opinions are clearly going to differ to yours and I genuinely can't answer other questions because I haven't been there long enough to know.

What I will say is, that having been I'm a school environment where a girl came out as non binary, which to be honest probably wouldn't have been such a big deal if she wasn't being bullied for not liking dresses and for being herself, it's at times like that when something is said and discussions are had.

We don't currently have any children in our setting who have disclosed any self identification differences; as far as we are aware, our children are girls who identify as girls. So we literally haven't had to deal with this.

If something DID arise, whether it was one of our children identifying as male or a male identifying as female who wanted to join, then that is the point at which we would need to take it to someone more senior than us.

There really cannot be many trans children in GG if any, because we would have more up front training. Or maybe it's on the menu and will be implemented soon. Or maybe it exists but doesn't happen unless you have a trans child at your unit.

To be honest, all the trans and enby people I've known as an adult, the few who had ever been interested in scouting and guiding, much preferred the scouts setting. I would have preferred scouts myself if it had been an option when I was a kid.

So I really don't think it's something anyone needs to be worrying about at this level.

There literally are not trans rapists trying to creep into children's beds, tents and showers.

So privacy and dignity don't matter either?

Should girls have to share tents with males?