AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

*This is the concept whereby someone should be treated as the opposite sex just because they say so without any 'gatekeeping' by society.

This has been pushed back on by many women as they feel that a non trans predatory male could use this to pretend to be trans to access women's spaces.*

I know a woman police officer. She told me that they have some disquiet about the possibility that a male prisoner could "self ID" as female on arrest so that their intimate body search has to be carried out by woman officer.

I pointed out that that is easily remedied by having a male officer self-ID as female for the purpose of searching that prisoner, which made her laugh.

But I can easily imagine a scenario where some loathsome misogynist would try this on just for the purpose of humiliating the woman who had to grope around his genitals.

In regards to the Middle East? It would not be tolerated at all, by family or society.

I understand that Iran has the second highest rate of sex reassignment surgery in the world (behind Thailand).

In Iran it is better to be trans than gay, so its a form of gay conversion therapy.

Unfortunately similar attitudes prevail the world over amongst some individuals

Just because something doesn't affect you, or you've not experienced it personally, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist...

How ignorant as that.

This thread is a wind up, right?

Lakie did you see this www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/amp/?client=safari (sorry no share token but it was in other papers.
This officer has an Abi and Callum warrant card so can show credentials as male or female and search all suspects.

I’m about the same age as you op. My DH knows one person who had a sex change but that’s the only contact I’ve ever had with only one transgender. I think it’s one of these things that a pressure group gets very powerful pushes their agenda on everyone desperate to show everyone their own particular issue is wide spread in society to make themselves feel more accepted. They jump on many vulnerable people, people looking for identity, suddenly it all becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.

It’s not just transgender, we are sold numerous silos and told to choose your side.

Unfortunately the world is a lot more divided today once you look through the facade of diversity.

Individuality is dead, and we have killed it!

I know one guy who transitioned and celebrates his vagina day on Facebook.
I find the whole thing distasteful. You can't appropriate as a different ethnicity or colour BUT men can put on a skirt and we have to accept their fantasy or we'll be accused of phobia.

I'm sick to death of having to appease men and their needs. Always men, always their entitlements no matter how you (literally) dress it up.

Im not going to worry about it tbh, the percentage of people messing about with their gender status is tiny. As far as I know ((in my 60 years) Ive never met anybody who has changed their gender, ~I wouldn't particularly care anyway, its their own business.

No, it's your business, and will absolutely have an impact on your life if you want to be able to access female-only spaces, have intimate care from someone who is actually biologically female rather than a man who has a 'feeling', have biological men's violent crimes listed as women's crimes because they self-ID as female, have biological men compete in women's sport/ be incarcerated in women's prisons, win women-only prizes aimed at making women more visible in areas in which they historically haven't had much traction, be counted as part of women's quotas etc.

Agreed, the percentages of men who identify as women are small. The actual and potential impact on biological women as a class is huge.

It affects you whether or not you are bothered, or whether you ever meet a trans person.

I'm had trans friends for nearly 20 years and I feel confused by trans issues now. So you're not alone.

@bishopgiggles

in prisons women are more likely to be assaulted by other women than a trans woman WooleyJ123 are you prepared to apologise for this transphobic statement? You're saying that TW aren't women and that there is some differentiation between TW and "other women". This is the sort of thing that activists are up in arms about.

Nope as it's not transphobic

I work in both male and female prisons and the amount of sexual assaults women on women is staggering

Yet the stats on trans women assaulting others in prison are so low but get the press attention

The amount of ignorance and sheer bigotry on this thread is disgusting tbh

Trans women shouldn't have to fight for trans spaces as that's you essentially saying they are not male, not female but something else. This sense of identity displacement is what causes suicide in the community as a whole. Trans women are women. End of story

@PotholeParadise, I've also known the occasional trans person for at least that long not well, friends of friends and the like, but they were around and I feel enormous individual sympathy for them, as I would for anyone who is struggling with body dysmorphia or MH issues.

The difference is that these people were engaging in their own struggles, and the most they wanted was to get on with their own individual lives with dignity and without being mistreated. They had no interest in making women's lives more difficult.

The trans lobby has now become enormously powerful out of all proportion to the number of people who want to transition, and is actively engaged in not only eroding hard-won women's rights but in aggressively redefining the category of woman in ways that are (obviously) detrimental to biological women and demonstrate classic male privilege. Male 'feelings' have become more important than female biological realities.

My sympathies with individual struggles remain unchanged. My determination not to accede to the erosion of women's rights and safeties for any reason are likewise unchanged.

wooley you misunderstood what I was saying. You talk about "women" as separate from trans women. This is transphobic. If you believe TWAW then how can you say "women" and "transwomen" as distinct groups when the first should encompass the second?

@Lifeisgenerallyfun, I suspect that there are significant regional and urban/rural variations. I live and work not far from Brighton and there are quite a few trans people employed by the organisation I work for (we know, because an "all staff" email comes round now and again saying that colleague A has transitioned and is now called B and giving the pronouns that they want used). My impression is that F2M transitions outnumber M2F by around 3 or 4 to 1.

In normal times, I work in the building where staff come for training courses, and there's been many an occasion when I've got chatting to someone in the kitchen and have no idea what their gender is, natal or trans. When I sneak a discreet look at a name badge, it invariably has a gender neutral name on it, so that's no help either. I've got used to it now, but new staff often find it a bit weird.

And I knew a few transpeople when I lived in London in the 1980s. In fact, we used to see a man who dressed as a woman when I was a child in the early 60s. I asked my mum why he wore women's clothes and lipstick, and her reply was "I expect they make him feel nice", which seemed fair enough to my 5-year old self.

@HandsOffMyRights

OP, you wiill also find that women are asked to defend ourselves as to why we don't want males in our spaces or delivering intimate care to elderly female relatives, why schools shouldn't teach gender ideology as fact, or why children shouldn't be prescribed off label drugs and placed on an irreverible surgical pathway.

It's a well rehearsed tactic, and it's always women having to explain why we are saying no to men. PP (who I quoted earlier) put it eloquantly. But I'd like those advocates of self ID who regulrly put women under the spotliggt to explain themseĺves for a change!

Why should males access female spaces? What benefits does this bring to women and girls?

Why aren't people campaigning for third spaces?

Why should girls compete against boys in sport and why should they share changing spaces and toilets with boys?

There are lots of other questions and I hope I'm asking much more reasonable questions in a calm way, which is a civility not often afforded to those of us who are gender critical.

I've yet to hear a plausable answer.

Why should males access female spaces? Because they're not men, they are women so have every right to want to access female spaces

What benefits does this bring to women and girls? It benefits the women and girls who identify as such and can now use changing rooms which they identify with

Why aren't people campaigning for third spaces? Because then you're making trans men and women have to think of themselves as an 'other' trans women are women, they shouldn't be told you might be a woman but you can't access actual women's spaces so have to get your own third category 'other' space - how awful would that feel? Being told your an 'other' and not the gender you associate with yourself.

Why should girls compete against boys in sport and why should they share changing spaces and toilets with boys?
Because they're not boys; they are girls. They identify as female so should be treated as such

It's really not that difficult to understand. You don't see gay people yelling at straight people in gay bars to go to their own club, or open their own gay friendly but not gay bar.

Many trans women and men are assaulted when using changing rooms or bathrooms of their assigned sex. They shouldn't be put in danger because a few pearl clutches don't want a trans woman in their changing room.

And are the data on the biological sex of prison sexual assaulters and their victims available, or is it only reported by gender?

@bishopgiggles

And are the data on the biological sex of prison sexual assaulters and their victims available, or is it only reported by gender?

It's widely available per sex, we have to report in the 5 prisons I work across in both biological sex and gender

Funnily enough there are two trans women in one of the female prisons, they were moved because they were sexually assaulted when put in a male only prison. Every day we have at least 2-3 female on female sex offenses to deal with. None of which have ever included the two trans inmates.

You don't see gay people yelling at straight people in gay bars to go to their own club

wooley I've seen trans people yelling at gay people that their same-sex attraction is wrong because it's a "genital fetish". Where do you stand on this?

Many trans women and men are assaulted when using changing rooms or bathrooms of their assigned sex

So, any male who identifies as a woman should be allowed into female only spaces to protect them from being assaulted?

Do you genuinely not see the glaring flaw of logic?

Something to point out is that perceived danger is different to real danger, but is still valid. If I’m using a public toilet and there’s a man self-identifying as a woman in another stall, but still in possession of genitalia, I’m far less likely to be attacked by him (a stranger) than by someone in my own home/someone I know.

But I was sexually abused a kid and part of that abuse took place in a bathroom. I’d be paralysed with fear in the situation described above, even if no actual risk was present.

When you think about the enormous number of women (and girls) who have been subject to physical and sexual violence and then think about them in toilets, changing rooms, medical settings - places where they are nude or partially nude and especially vulnerable - with people who, physically, appear as men, it’s impossible not to understand why that might be a problem and a trigger for millions of women and girls. The only way to ignore such an issue is to, well, ignore it. To pretend it doesn’t exist, to call people transphobes and bigots, to threaten them into silence. But it’s still an issue an always will be. It’s why a third space, a mixed-sex bathroom, is needed. If you’re comfortable using it, fab, crack on. If you’re not, there are toilets left for you that will only be shared by people of the same biological sex. I can’t fathom why this is such an offensive concept to many activists, unless they do indeed have a misogynistic agenda.

wooley Every day we have at least 2-3 female on female sex offenses to deal with

Is this in America - I note your spelling. When you say "female" in that sentence, are you, or are you not, including transwomen in that group of people?

just in case you don't...

If any male can self declare they are a woman, whats to stop them from following another self declared male woman into the women's toilets to assault them?

I just think I've got a handle on trans matters and then something else comes along. I think I have an opinion and then someone says 'but what about...?' and all my previous opinions are up in the air. I try to read up on things and keep an open mind, but I worry that, at some point I'm just going to go 'nope, that's it, I'm out.'

zaphod I think the crux of the argument is that no one really cares what people wear and what gender roles they follow.

But there are times where biological sex matters and safeguarding is paramount and these shouldn't be cast aside based on how someone claims to feel.

Wooley

Appreciate you taking the time to answers. Sadly, all you've provided is reasons why those males who self ID as women are demanding unfetered access to female spaces and services, you've not understood that humans cannot change sex or expressed any thought for the needs and rights of the vast majority of natal girls and women because you deem them pearl clutchers .

Also, you've conflated sex and sexuality again, by comparing the gay rights' movement with self ID. Not helpful and a common ploy of men's rights activists and the women who serve them.