AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

I have never met a trans person in all of my 43 years.

Really? In my 50 years I have come across a few, however most of them more recently. I work with 3 including 2 Trans-women and 1 Trans-man who is very young. At my DC's school, which is very small, there are 2 or 3 DC who are female and are being supported in identifying as male.

One thing that I was surprised at is that I think I have pretty conservative views and have joined in the anti-trans on here a few times. I have recently changed my views on this because of my experiences at work. I found that in real life I am not a horrible bigot at all and if anything, don't bat an eyelid at others choices so long as they are not bothering anyone else, and they aren't. In my changing room we have a very shy, large trans-woman and they keep their head down. Non of the women give a stuff that they are there and in fact I'd say a good few of us go out of our way to make them feel welcome and included in conversations. I surprised myself. I think the media has wound us up a lot. That said I hate that Dr. on Twitter and the aggressive trans out to cause problems for both sides.

I've lived overseas and I'd actually say the opposite. You may not have experience of trans over there but living abroad should have cracked open your mind and your appreciation of all things different to you.

The other thing for the Op to check is the equalities act. This means no one can “discriminate“ on a range of protected characteristics. For instance one is pregnancy so no one can refuse to hire a woman just because of pregnancy.
Gender reassignment is also a protected characteristic, so no one can discriminate against someone who has transitioned, or is ...something like..,“Intending to transition”.
These rights have to be enforced. At the moment there is quite a lot of enforcement of the rights of trans people, for instance the hate crime/incident tracking. There is no tracking of hate crimes/incidents against pregnant women or misogyny in general.

Goodness me, if you're confused try researching or using google. MN is very anti trans from what I have seen (esp the 'feminism' board) so I would try and do independent research.

Your son will definitely need to understand some parts before starting secondary school, might also help to ask his school about how and what they teach regarding this subject to know what base level of understanding he needs.

Trans issues have always been around, but not accepted in the past, many older people are now only being able to full live their true lives.

OP. Say you had a daughter not a son.

Would you be happy with someone with the body of a teenage boy changing with her for PE?
Would you be happy with them sleeping in her room on an oversees school trip?
If your daughter was an athlete, would you be happy if the person got the place in the girls country team ahead of her?
If when older she had to stay in a women's refuge, would you be happy with a male bodied person being in there too?
If she was raped and wanted a female sex doctor or PC attending her, would you be happy with a male sex but id ing as a woman attending her?
If she ended up in prison, would you be happy with a male sex person being housed on her landing using the showers with her?

And even if you were personally happy if it right that you would give away the rights of other women to not want to accept these things? You've lived in the ME. How many Muslim families would be happy with this?

Objecting to self ID on the basis that it can be used as a cover for men to claim they are women purely for their own misogynist gratification is transphobic 🤷‍♀️

In fact, you will be invited to choke on a girl dick for even trying to point out the flaws in allowing any man unfettered access, to both women and the transwomen who supposedly need protecting from men.

Quite why vocal sections of the trans community are OK with this is anyones guess.

The UK’s first hate crime prosecution was against Miranda Yardley. She mentioned Helen Islan on Twitter. Helen did social media work for the Mermaids charity and complained to the police.
Miranda’s crime was to be an opponent of transitioning children early (which impacts their bone density, brain development, sexual functioning and ability to be a parent, but means they might “fit” superficially into society cosmetically more easily, which is important to the Mermaids parents)
Miranda (who knows her stuff, she is a transsexual) has this law case hanging over her for ages. The law case was dismissed- nothing to answer -on the first day.

@Autviaminveniamautfaciam
"I've lived overseas and I'd actually say the opposite. You may not have experience of trans over there but living abroad should have cracked open your mind and your appreciation of all things different to you".

I'm not sure if I've misunderstood but I sense an element of judgment here. The part about living abroad "cracking open my mind". I'd say that I'm very open-minded which is one of the reasons for asking more about a topic I feel I know very little about. My husband is Muslim, I'm Christian, we celebrate all religious festivals. I have experience here of people living in absolute poverty. I also have experience of people here being persecuted because of their sexuality. But, I have very little in-depth knowledge of trans issues. I have never 'knowingly; met a trans person. I'm also not saying that transgender didn't exist before now, I guess I'm really saying that it wasn't a huge topic of debate as it seems to be now. I'm sure you weren't suggesting I was closed-minded and if you weren't, I apologise.

@TeenPlusTwenties

In general this would be a non issue if trans people (and transwomen in particular) campaigned for 3rd spaces.

Mixed sex toilets/changing rooms alongside mens and womens.
If they fundraised for their own DV shelters.
Special categories in sports, prisons, company boards.

The main problem is occurring because people who are born men want 'access' to women's spaces.

Women's spaces aren't there for 'women and anyone else who feels at risk or not comfortable in mens spaces'.

However for reasons best known to themselves, the trans activists are not happy with campaigning for 3rd spaces.

But why should they

Trans women are women and have every right to access women's spaces...

Same as trans men have rights to men's spaces because they are men

The whole it puts women in danger line is BS, in prisons women are more likely to be assaulted by other women than a trans woman, however guess which ones get the headlines and therefore pulled out of proportion

OP, if you have Netflix, I urge you to watch the documentary Disclosure.

(And anyone else who is curious about trans people and their perspective)

It's about how trans people have been portrayed in Hollywood since the birth of film, but through the medium of trans people talking about those movies and TV shows and how it made them feel growing up.

Within 10 minutes you'll "get it" . I recommend it to absolutely everyone.

Transgender issues are definitely not a new thing, a quick Google search will tell you that there are documented texts from 4500 years ago detailing transgender priests, some Native American tribes have always recognised a third gender or two spirit person, and there was even a Roman Emporer who preferred to be called a Lady instead of a Lord and actually saught out sex reassignment surgery.

I got all of that from a very quick search on Google, it amazes me that people honestly believe that 'transgender' and 'gays' are a modern concept.

@TeenPlusTwenties
These are all issues which I am beginning to toil over in my mind. In regards to the Middle East? It would not be tolerated at all, by family or society. That is not something I agree with either.
I have no problem with transgender people. However, the area I need to get my head around it what extent should their wishes be allowed to infringe on women's rights. I need to educate myself more before I even attempt to make a judgement.

@CarrotCakeCrumbs
I was never suggesting that being 'transgender' is a modern concept, absolutely not. What I AM saying is that when I was in my twenties it was not a significant topic of debate as it appears to be today. Also, the terminology that is used today was not used then. Binary, non-binary cisgender - these are all terms that I had not heard of until recently.

@ElspethFlashman
Thanks for that, I'll check it out.

The bathroom argument is also slightly ridiculous, public bathrooms have stalls with doors that lock. You have no way of knowing what genitals the person in the stool next to you possesses and they have zero interest in yours. You will definitely have been in a bathroom, or even a changing room, with a lesbian at some point in your life - who is probably more likely to be attracted to you than a trans woman and yet nobody is worried about that. Anyone going into a public bathroom just wants to do their business and get out of there, they have no interest in anyone else in there.

I wasn't intentionally judging you OP. I actually think you are giving yourself a hard time. You are probably a lot more open minded based on your experiences than you think. Just give yourself a bit of time to absorb the things going on back home. Your child will be fine. Transgender issues are all new to our children too. They have only recently been educated about it.

Ding! We have the comparing lesbians to men trope.

Whats next on the list...

@confusedandold oh no I didn't think you were, but there are some posters who do believe that it is a new thing. I think the new terminology is because like gay rights, it was such a taboo topic and there wasn't very much support for anyone coming out and so it was very much hidden and not talked about whereas now we know more and it can be talked about openly.

Just because some people have always believed something doesn't make it a true belief. The majority of the world, for the majority of human history, has believed some form of a soul. That doesn't give us any evidence at all that a soul is a real thing. So just because some men have always claimed to be, or wished to be, women, doesn't mean that they actually are women. And that's the nub of it, not what people believe, but what they want to be established as if it was a fact for the purposes of making huge legal and social changes that disproportionately affect women. If this was just about everyone being entitled to a belief then the idea of sex could be taught alongside evolution in science, the idea of gender could be taught along side creationism in RE, and everyone could agree to disagree. But this is about a small group trying to push their belief system into law. Like if Christians were trying to make it the law that you had to believe in a soul and it was being taught as fact in schools. The fact that it's not a new concept is no more relevent to the truth than the fact that Christianity is not a new concept.

pertella
dammit i have a meeting and i dont have time for bingo.....:D

@pertella I am a lesbian and delighted to not have to deal with men, but can you explain exactly why it's wrong to compare the two in these situations? Both are attracted to women. Do you really think that a man would attack you in a public changing room or bathroom? Because that's a level of fear and paranoia that I am blessed to not have to live with.

@Pertellar the point is that women are more than capable of controlling themselves without sexually harassing anyone - even when surrounded by fully naked, attractive women. I see no reason why a trans woman (or anyone for that matter) would not be able to do the same. And if they are not capable of controlling themselves and they are entering that space for nefarious purposes then they clearly aren't worried about what they should or should not be doing are they.

OP, you may wish to look up the definition of transman and transwoman.

The language can be confusing in that a transman is a woman who self identifies as a man and a transwoman is a man who self identifies as a woman.

The wording can be tricky for the general public to navigate! When I first became involved in this debate I would see the word 'woman' and naturally associate that with natal women (I'm only using a prefix of natal here as you say you are new to the subject).

Under Stonewall's 'Transgender Umbrella' absolutely anybody can sit under this and absolutely anybody can self identify as the opposite sex class, which is lumped in with the social construct of gender and there are more than 200? genders apparently!

Around 98 per cent of men who self identify as women still have their male genitalia.

There are many other labels such as non-binary or gender fluid, which you can read up on.

Again, very important to distinguish between sex and sexuality as many men's rights activists will try to conflate these, which is insulting to all.

Ding! Who had men are gonna abuse anyway so we may as well do away with all safeguarding and single sex spaces?

You have no way of knowing what genitals the person in the stool next to you possesses

This is not true 99% of the time if you actually see the person go in or out of the cubicle or stand next to them at the sink.

and they have zero interest in yours.

This is not true if the "woman" in the next cubicle is actually a male with autogynephia who is getting all kinds of thrills from doing "her" business next to someone with my type of genitals.

You will definitely have been in a bathroom, or even a changing room, with a lesbian at some point in your life - who is probably more likely to be attracted to you than a trans woman and yet nobody is worried about that,

Maybe because lesbians, unlike men, don't commit 98% of sexual crimes against women?

Anyone going into a public bathroom just wants to do their business and get out of there, they have no interest in anyone else in there.

Oh you sweet summer child.