AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

Just to add, the TRAs like to muddy the debate by talking about toilets and changing rooms, but the issue of single sex spaces and safeguarding goes far deeper than that.

@Kit19

98% of all sexual assualts are carried out by men

women are more likely to be attacked in mixed sex toilets and changing areas

the vast vast vast majority of adults do not abuse children yet we have safeguarding in place and DBS checks to keep children safe.

my husband is lovely and kind and not going to attack random women - that doesnt mean he should just be able to wonder freely into womens toilets showers, changing rooms, prisons, refuges and other spaces

do we really have to keep pointing this out??

98% of all sexual assualts are carried out by men - yeah men, not trans women... statistically trans men and women are more likely to be victims of sexual abuse than perpetrators but of course that doesn't fit your narrative.

women are more likely to be attacked in mixed sex toilets and changing areas - yeah because women are the most likely to be attacked anywhere; not just toilets

Seems basic data analysis is not your strong point.

Also, you've conflated sex and sexuality again, by comparing the gay rights' movement with self ID

That happens a lot.

Its almost as if they are setting up LGB people to be the fall guys when it all goes tits up 🤷‍♀️

Exactly that pertella

wooley, when you say "female" in your description of sexual assaults, are you, or are you not, including transwomen in that group of people?

You keep forgetting to answer! It's quite important, as you know that trans women could be reading and feeling that you don't accept they are female.

Trans women carry out sexual assault at the same rate as other males.

Trans men are at higher risk of assault because of their female bodies.

Its strange how when you separate out by biology the same patterns keep emerging?

@Pertella

zaphod I think the crux of the argument is that no one really cares what people wear and what gender roles they follow.

But there are times where biological sex matters and safeguarding is paramount and these shouldn't be cast aside based on how someone claims to feel.

This.

@bishopgiggles

wooley you misunderstood what I was saying. You talk about "women" as separate from trans women. This is transphobic. If you believe TWAW then how can you say "women" and "transwomen" as distinct groups when the first should encompass the second?

Nope

Clearly the bigots on here don't get they're the same so for ease I'm breaking it down in my comments

Trans women are women. They deserve the same spaces as women and deserve the same level of protection afforded to 'women'

There is such a small likelihood that a rapist male will pretend to be trans that it's not worth making a whole group of people left out over.

Fact - trans men and women are more likely to suffer sexual abuse than commit sexual abuse - these are easy to find statistics. Why should someone who identifies as female be forced into a male changing room and put themselves at risk of being assaulted. And before you say but trans women coming into female changing rooms are a risk to women - it's a much smaller risk.

Yet you keep on with your ignorant comments, thankfully people like you are being called out and cancelled (such as JK Rowling)

wooley still needs to explain the logic of how letting self declared male women into female spaces is supposed to protect the other self declared male women in there from being assaulted by them.

Fuck female women though, they don't need private spaces cos abusers gonna abuse!

@Pertella

Trans women carry out sexual assault at the same rate as other males.

Trans men are at higher risk of assault because of their female bodies.

Its strange how when you separate out by biology the same patterns keep emerging?

No they do not

That's a laughable comment and definitely not backed up with stats.

ding! The 'it doesn't happen defence!

How many women or transwomen is it acceptable to be raped and abused by predatory men before it is seen as an issue?

@Pertella

wooley still needs to explain the logic of how letting self declared male women into female spaces is supposed to protect the other self declared male women in there from being assaulted by them.

Fuck female women though, they don't need private spaces cos abusers gonna abuse!

Their response to my questions has shown a blatant disregard for the rights and needs of females, along with safeguarding.

@WooleyJ123 Did you read my post, where I’ve explained that millions of women and girls need to FEEL safe, as well as actually being safe? How do rationalise this, exactly? Are you opposed to the idea of a third space?

sure Wooley... its not backed up by any stats that you would accept is what you really mean.

But you carry on with it, I'm sure you are convincing lots of people of the merits of allowing all and any men access to female spaces and services 👍

@Zaphodsotherhead

I just think I've got a handle on trans matters and then something else comes along. I think I have an opinion and then someone says 'but what about...?' and all my previous opinions are up in the air. I try to read up on things and keep an open mind, but I worry that, at some point I'm just going to go 'nope, that's it, I'm out.'

I've been having a lot of those, and it makes me very unhappy.

Trans people are people and so deserve dignity and respect. People who aren't trans are people and so deserve dignity and respect. Women are a vulnerable group and so are trans people and when vulnerable groups' needs collide you have to find a nuanced way forward that keeps everyone safe.

Which brings me to the potential impact on single-sex swimming sessions set up to widen access to swimming pools for women and girls from conservative religious communities who won't or can't use mixed sex sessions.

Someone screenshot a discussion from a far-right forum discussing how they could use self-ID to disrupt those. I think they were discussing Birmingham.

Nope! I am not up for legislation that will accidentally reduce Muslim women and girls' chances to participate in public life or can be deliberately used to block their participation.

Wooley, you said "nope" in response to this: "If you believe TWAW then how can you say "women" and "transwomen" as distinct groups when the first should encompass the second?"

So are you saying that "women" doesn't include trans women when you use the word in your posts? Can you see why what you are saying is contradictory?

All my posts in this thread have been to try and highlight transphobia, particularly in your own posts. Yet instead of apologising you call me bigoted? Based on what?

I think I'll just report transphobia where I see it now rather than try and suggest the poster stops using exclusionary language.

Their response to my questions has shown a blatant disregard for the rights and needs of females, along with safeguarding.

There is no answer that doesn't completely contradict the whole argument!

They deserve the same spaces as women

Oh Wooley, you keep doing it! Treating TW as separate from women!

Trans women are women and have every right to access women's spaces...

No. They. Are. Fucking. Not!

Pothole
I'm from Birmingham and this is a real concern.

When I campaigned in the city centre around the GRA and Stonewall's lobbying to remove single sex exemptions, not one person I spoke to agreed with Stonewall's proposals.

In fact, many who I spoke to, the majority from BME communities, had young children and those mothers and fathers did not know about the proposals.

Not one wanted mixed sex spaces, including hospital wards and refuges, not one wanted their little girls to change with boys or shower with boys, not one wanted their elderly mothers to receive intimate care from men who self ID as women.

Yet their voices are not being heard because TRAs shout loudly about bigots and cancel culture.

bishop are you trans?

Because you're seriously gatekeeping what people can call themselves.

In that documentary I mentioned earlier, every single person interviewed described themselves as "transwomen" "transman" or "transmasc".

Frankly if they freely use the terms as descriptors when describing their life challenges I don't see why you're in such a snot about someone else doing it.

This thread is so gross

Wanted to leave some facts for the pearl clutchers/bigots

Assault or rape by a stranger only accounts for 13% of all reported attacks against women

Of that 13% less than 9% were outside the victims home or the perpetrators home - the majority of the 9% were street attacks however the numbers are so low street, bathrooms, parks etc. are all combined (so the percentage of total toilet attacks is much less than 9%)

The vast majority of offenders are male. Trans women do not count as 'male' (rightfully so) under the majority of the crime reports done in the UK. There are many separate FOI reports on the numbers of trans victims and perpetrators available if you want to look into it.

Now you see why moaning about the tiny chance of being assaulted by a trans person in a toilet is ridiculous? And definitely not worth making many many people hate themselves more than they already do?

I don’t believe trans women are women. They are trans women.

only men can be transwomen.

Most men are not rapists
but all rapists are men (because the definition of rape involves a thing that women do not have)