AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

confused the definition of trans is much wider now. Transitioning isn’t a requirement. Having to “pass” is considered transphobic. Gender dysphoria isn’t a requirement. The Tory party’s Conservative woman’s association quoted 3% of the population (yesterday I think). They didn’t give their definition, but I think they were excluding people like the non-binary Layla Moran, because the tweet was about how there were no trans MPs, so the trans part of the population was underrepresented.

@ChateauMargaux
Thanks for this, that's what I'm looking for. Different sides of the issues so I can formulate my own opinion.

It has been said that the male to female trans movement very much has the backing of the MRA (Men's rights activists).

It's destroying women's sports. It's messing up statistics around spending on health between the sexes (women have traditionally had less spent), statistics on crime etc etc.

Some people want to enshrine gender in law, trumping the biological/material reality of sex. Some people want to abolish gender altogether, because it is based on stereotypes.

When I grew up, in my neck of the world, gay people didn't exist.
cory, what do you mean by gay here? People who are same-sex attracted or same-gender attracted?

Trans issues have been around forever, it’s just that it was never talked about in the same way that at one time being gay was never talked about.
Well I don't think that's true. The transgender character Hayley Cropper was first on TV when I was a child, in 1998. Transsexuals were around, people had sex changes. It was discussed. There were lots of gender non-conforming people around too, more than today I would say.
What's new is 1) redefinition as transgenderism, so the gender non-conforming people now often label themselves as trans whereas in the past that option wasn't there for them because they didnt want a sex change (see Eddie Izzard, Sam Smith for example)
2) A genuine increase in people identifying as trans and seeking medication/surgery. Especially prevalent in young women. If those people had "always been around" we would be seeing a lot of women in their 40s transition as they had always been trans but had been hiding it. But that isn't what is happening. Its teenage girls and so something new is happening.

My local paper (Coventry) carries a quote from Daniel Browne. His organisation runs youth groups for LGBTQ youth, and he stated that 90% of these young people were trans.
This is an astonishing change!

But cory, that’s not really the point, is it?

For one thing, it isn’t just about our safety as women - I am personally none too fussed if a man identifying as a woman uses women’s toilets, they are in cubicles anyway, and a man determined to rape probably wouldn’t be deterred by a sign on the door indicating a skirt - but the point is that it blurs the boundaries and that does have repercussions further down the line. In other words, if I shrug and accept it in a toilet, then its a changing room and then it’s a prison? It really doesn’t take much imagination to know that a man convicted of a sexual crime in a place with vulnerable women, many of them in their teens still, is really not a good thing.

And then I think the much-forgotten aspect to this is that trans people themselves are destroying their bodies, ruining their chances of having children, often at a very young age, and why - because they don’t adhere to perceived norms about gender? Awful!

And it all comes back to suicide, yet the stats don’t seem to back that up at all.

Have a look at the websites of Stonewall, Mermaids, Trangender Trend and a Woman’s Place for some varying viewpoints.

Also there are lots of YouTube videos on the subject. Magdelen Burns felt very strongly about this and links to some videos where she is arguing the opposite case. Blaire White is a transwoman who is not a trans activist - her videos are quite interesting.

It's important not to conflate sexuality and gender identity, which some posters seem to be doing.

Im not going to worry about it tbh, the percentage of people messing about with their gender status is tiny. As far as I know ((in my 60 years) Ive never met anybody who has changed their gender, ~I wouldn't particularly care anyway, its their own business. The "showing off" their status on instgram or whatever makes me raise my eyebrows a bit though.....................

In general this would be a non issue if trans people (and transwomen in particular) campaigned for 3rd spaces.

Mixed sex toilets/changing rooms alongside mens and womens.
If they fundraised for their own DV shelters.
Special categories in sports, prisons, company boards.

The main problem is occurring because people who are born men want 'access' to women's spaces.

Women's spaces aren't there for 'women and anyone else who feels at risk or not comfortable in mens spaces'.

However for reasons best known to themselves, the trans activists are not happy with campaigning for 3rd spaces.

There is an Ask Me Anything on the site at the moment. AMA ops are very brave! She is married to a transman.

Also look at the terf is a slur website

I am the same as you OP. I am 40 and have no intention of ever using those words - cis and non-binary. I am interested and have been reading about it but, on the whole, don't discuss it here because of the shouter-downs.

It's an incredibly febrile area of discussion OP and I agree that you should focus on reading widely and trying to understand the following things before making up your mind on what you think:

1. what is "the debate"? Which rights are women concerned about protecting and what new entitlements are trans people campaigning for? Go to each side directly for their position so that you avoid straw man interpretations.
2. what do the terms involved mean? Look for definitions of gender identity, gender, sex, man/woman, male/female, transgender, transexual, and non binary. Who is included by the term "transgender"? Who is included by the term "woman"? You will probably find different definitions of these from both sides.
3. look at what the science says on the subject of "brain gender" and "intersex"
4. loop at what the law says on the current rights and entitlements of trans people vs women as defined by their sex class. What do the statistics say regarding the vulnerability of each group?
5. look at what the current situation is regarding the affirmation of and medical options for children who define as trans.

Yeh I know, it's a lot. Unfortunetaly the barrier to entry for this topic is quite high since it intersects with so many social, legal, and medical areas of life. Many people discussing this have been doing so for years and may use unfamiliar acronyms so always check what the terms being discussed mean. But I think these are the main topics you need to be at least passingly familiar with in order to make an informed opinion.

It's not your age Tbh. I am mid fifties and can think of two m to f people in our area about 25 to 30 years ago.....
The issue is not a new one but attitudes to it are.

Whatever you think about the concepts, when it comes to individuals, just be polite. If someone wants to be referred to as Sarah and by she/her then that’s what I do. I might have concerns about preserving female spaces in domestic violence and rape crisis centres and about the numbers of girls identifying as male because they don’t feel they fit what I believe is a stereotypical idea of what it is to be female but I wouldn’t deliberately upset someone for no reason.

Hi callmeadoctor, I’m the parent of a very vulnerable disabled child, so being able to request intimate care from someone of the same sex is important to me. It is important to lots of people.
My mother spent the end of her life in a hospital ward and was upset to be sharing with a (in reality very nice) man. Single sex spaces matter to lots of British people, especially those who are temporary or permanently impaired.

@QuentinWinters “If those people had "always been around" we would be seeing a lot of women in their 40s transition as they had always been trans but had been hiding it. But that isn't what is happening. Its teenage girls and so something new is happening.”

Do you have a source for figures regarding older females transitioning, or is that your perception? I would counter that it’s harder for older adults to transition - they have been conditioned to hide and have built lives based on being hidden as trans, and that is a lot harder to ‘come out’ from. In a similar way, there are middle aged LGB individuals who are still in the closet about their sexuality. I can only speak from my experiences within the LGBT community.

Blimey, the TRAs really are running scared these days...

Auntypasta the trouble is, being nice and polite has got us where we are now.

No one has mentioned 'self id' yet.

This is the concept whereby someone should be treated as the opposite sex just because they say so without any 'gatekeeping' by society.

This has been pushed back on by many women as they feel that a non trans predatory male could use this to pretend to be trans to access women's spaces. They couldn't be challenged as they could just say they 'self id' as a woman.

Self id isn't currently recognised by law, but due to 'trans awareness' training that companies have bought in from places such as Stonewall, some companies / organisations have effectively implemented it anyway and at times some people misguidedly give the impression it is law.

it’s harder for older adults to transition

Doesn't seem to be stopping middle aged men from doing it in their droves, does it? Maybe there are some sort of sex based differences at play...

Of course trans issues have been about for decades. Women pushing gender boundaries in the 20s and 30s. Trans people were part of the gay subculture in the US, well before gay rights were obtained. Tales of the City published in 1978. Boy George/Blitz kids/New Romantics prompted a huge discussion of what it meant to be male/ female. “Sex change” Is not a new concept.

It’s as if people have no knowledge of history.

What has changed In recent years is the demands placed on women to:

• move aside and give up hard won spaces in sport/ all women panels/ awards etc
• reduce women’s single sex safe spaces such as in prisons/ changing rooms

-accept changes in language imposed without their consent (I am not “cis”)

• accept that there should be no debate on any of these issues, and that death threats, threats of rape, violence, and attempts to have women sacked from their jobs is a proportionate response to any attempt to discuss how women are affected by these changes

Plus the push to implement affirmative acceptance of any child who thinks they are trans gender with associated irreversible medical changes, with a seeming disregard for any notion that it might be sensible to have safeguards to ensure that this is not just a phase/not an attempt to escape trauma/mental health issues etc.