AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

You have no idea what I think so get off your damn high horse and stop speaking on behalf of me, you don't sound clever at all- you sound like a child. Maybe learn how to have an actual discussion about differing opinions and then come back to me.

Lol. You haven't answered a single question put to you on this thread. How can we discuss differing opinions when those with differing opinions won't discuss or expand on their opinions!

still refusing to answer questions and actually engage in discussion though.

@GreytExpectations

I don’t think I’ve said anything offensive and do want a genuine, open discussion so could you please answer my questions?

Thanks

Why do you want me specifically to answer it? You've mentioned it 3 times now. I'm not saying I won't answer but I'm curious as to your motives for asking so insistantly.

Ummm.... Because you keep coming on here and saying how people won't discuss things, so people are asking you questions in order to start a discussion.

Sorry cross-posted. You seem to be one of the few people on here who wants open discussion and is not GC.

I have said on many threads I find the conflict in rights difficult to reconcile and would like to understand from another POV.

I would do my utmost to defend the rights of anyone to believe whatever they want, providing it causes no harm to others.

I draw the line at being forced to accept those beliefs.

I won't.
No point insisting that if a person thinks they're in the wrong body that I have to believe it too.

I'm no bigot, Terf or any other slur. I'm just a woman.

Beware I have said on many threads I find the conflict in rights difficult to reconcile and would like to understand from another POV.

This is basically me, but I've been waiting for at least 3 years for answers. Even when Jo Swinson was asked 'what is a woman' and couldn't answer. "We all know what a woman is", well clearly we don't as there is some disagreement!

@GreytExpectations

I’ve explained my reasons for asking you, you’ve deflected a bit but said your happy to answer the question, please do?

I would really appreciate it.

I will not be forced to believe in someone else's religion.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

It's an incredibly febrile area of discussion OP and I agree that you should focus on reading widely and trying to understand the following things before making up your mind on what you think:

1. what is "the debate"? Which rights are women concerned about protecting and what new entitlements are trans people campaigning for? Go to each side directly for their position so that you avoid straw man interpretations.
2. what do the terms involved mean? Look for definitions of gender identity, gender, sex, man/woman, male/female, transgender, transexual, and non binary. Who is included by the term "transgender"? Who is included by the term "woman"? You will probably find different definitions of these from both sides.
3. look at what the science says on the subject of "brain gender" and "intersex"
4. loop at what the law says on the current rights and entitlements of trans people vs women as defined by their sex class. What do the statistics say regarding the vulnerability of each group?
5. look at what the current situation is regarding the affirmation of and medical options for children who define as trans.

Yeh I know, it's a lot. Unfortunetaly the barrier to entry for this topic is quite high since it intersects with so many social, legal, and medical areas of life. Many people discussing this have been doing so for years and may use unfamiliar acronyms so always check what the terms being discussed mean. But I think these are the main topics you need to be at least passingly familiar with in order to make an informed opinion.

Great post.

OP, YANBU to feel confused about this.

IMO, it's deliberately confusing and the refusal of those who proclaim to know about it to answer questions doesn't help change that opinion.

I find it interesting and deeply reassuring that this thread
on a potentially very contentious topic
on the busiest MN board
has largely stayed focused, informative, clear and measured

I hope that the OP has found it useful

I think most of us try to be fair.
I made an error in my earlier post on this thread.. I thought that an mp had announced they were non-binary. The Hon L. Moran was being interviewed by Nick Robinson and listening today, I realised I’d misremembered. She identifies as a woman, and the announcement was that she was pansexual.
Apologies to all readers (especially Layla if she happens to be on Mumsnet, obviously).

non binary
am still waiting for a description of binary that is not misogynistic

I'm married with kids but allergic to makeup, skirts, any sort of beauty treatment - in fact most of the criteria that count as "living as a woman" I hate shopping too

I can’t help with the definition of non-binary other than that Stonewall definition. I also don’t know in which context it’s a useful concept.
So toilets, it’s useful to divide by need; males can use urinals quickly; Cubicles with sanitary towel bins help females with periods/birth injuries etc.; those extra roomy “changing places” loos are essential for some disabled people. What different needs do non-binary people have? No idea.

i think they need to be thought of as different or separate to 'the binary'?!
but they seem reluctant to say what the binary is- and how they are not it - so it all a bit #awks.

Surely binary is identifying as male or female - non binary is not identifying or wanting to be labelled as male or female - or am I missing something?

well, what is male or female?
they are biological sex class, no?
so you can claim youre neither male nor female, just as you can claim youre non human, but who would take that seriously?

If the was no inequality or prejudice around being male or female then this wouldn’t be an issue.

To put it another way then from what I understand does not identify with the characteristics of having XX or XY chromosomes.

what are those characteristics?

Well everyone’s ideas and experiences of that is different.

Non-binary basically means that you don't identify with any of the bullshit stereotypes associated with men or women, or that you associate with stereotypes from both men and women. Which apparently means you are neither male nor female.....

binary people all share certain characteristics - which are unknown or secret - but nb people dont.

so binary people are in the mysterious binary box, but nb peoole are not.

@ACNH

Surely binary is identifying as male or female - non binary is not identifying or wanting to be labelled as male or female - or am I missing something?

But you don't 'identify' as male or female, you just are male or female.

Well everyone’s ideas and experiences of that is different.

What you are talking about is socially constructed stereotypes, not 'characteristics of having XX or XY chromosomes'. Characteristics of having XX chromosomes would be for example periods (or lack of them for a specific reasons), possibility of pregnancy (even if that is an impossibility of pregnancy), having a vagina, a biologically female body. They are universal characteristics of having XX chromosomes.

Non-binary females don't identify with the stereotypes place on them by society as females. All of these young non-binary people will find out soon enough that it is impossible to identify out of a female body.

Yes the socially constructed characteristics - correct