AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

greyt

Just so I understand exactly where you are coming from, there should be no question of not accepting a fully intact male as a woman only on their say so, and giving them access to female spaces and services?

Awaits guff about i could answer if I wanted but you'll only try to challenge me on my opinions and show up any flaws in my arguments.

Greyt just wants other women to shut up and do what they've been told.

Greyt doesn't want to actually debate and explore the issue in any way and won't tolerate being told where there opinion may be flawed.

You wrong grey, grey doesn't just want women to shut up ( recall that grey does not see women anything but a gender identity ) grey wants all people who do not agree to shut up, no matter what gender they are

There used to be a word to describe the type of people that grey wants to shut up...now what was it....

I’ve always been an advocate for trans folk, and will always continue to be so but not to the detriment of women’s rights.

To simplify my stance, I’ll reference an earlier post on this thread; Abi and Callum.

Abi/Callum is a gender fluid police officer, with two warrant cards to state said officer is 1: a female (Abi) and 2: a male (Callum) and is therefore able to perform intimate searches on members of either sex without question, and leaves arrestees without any way to legally prevent this person stripping and searching them.

Consider how many females are/have been victims of sexual assault and then throw into the ring the concept that a male bodied person may be able to undress and inspect a female who has been arrested without any legal recourse to object.

It’s really simple and honestly it’s not about who uses what fucking toilet.

If you’re advocating for TWs rights without an equal empathy and understanding of what those rights may mean for the other women they will impact then you are not an advocate for women, ANY women, and your voice is unwelcome in this discussion.

Greyt

I understand that you believe TWAW; however many remain male-bodied women.

There are many Muslim, Jewish, Christian women and girls who will not be able to be in the same space as male-bodied people e.g. swimming pool changing rooms, sports changing rooms, residential school trips. Is it acceptable collateral damage that if they cannot be educated to accept male-bodied people in to these spaces they will have to stop using them? Or maybe they should be considered bigots?

To be fair, most mothers I know do not want their 11 year old daughters sharing a dormitory or tent on a guide camp or school trip with a male-bodied 16 year old.

Do you think we should all just accept these situations?

@CosSam1

You boomer Karens will never get it. Thankfully my generation is kinder than yours.

Maybe you'll get it when you grow up

^^ or are you joking?
There are so many batshit comments on this thread I can't tell what is a wind up anymore

I think that @BewaretheIckabog's point about the conflict between the rights of women of some religions to exercise their freedom to observe their religious beliefs and the right of transwomen to self-ID is a very important one.

And I'm afraid I cannot see a way of reconciling the two.

You have no way of knowing what genitals the person in the stool next to you possesses

This is not true 99% of the time if you actually see the person go in or out of the cubicle or stand next to them at the sink.

Erm... I don’t know about you but I’ve never seen anyone naked from the waist down while washing hands... so no I wouldn’t know the genitals they have.
If you are saying we’d guess due to trans women looking masculine then you are being rather judgemental, or saying all bio females are feminine you’re wrong. I know some masculine looking women and trans women you’d assume were born female.

Yet it turns out that women can quite reliably tell what genitals adults possess

A combination of looks, smell and movement it seems

Totally useless at working out the genitals toddlers possess without looking though

Fascinating, you might guess that puberty and sexual maturity matters

There are many Muslim, Jewish, Christian women and girls who will not be able to be in the same space as male-bodied people e.g. swimming pool changing rooms, sports changing rooms, residential school trips. Is it acceptable collateral damage that if they cannot be educated to accept male-bodied people in to these spaces they will have to stop using them? Or maybe they should be considered bigots?

^^Nah, they don't matter at all, when it comes to the feelings of a penis-haver. You should know that by now. Penis-havers desires and wants and demands come first, ALWAYS. Human Rights for religious beliefs, need to feel safe, etc- are automatically cancelled out when a penis-haver demands their own rights. Fact.

Is it that more people have issues around their gender?
Probably not, but that there is increased pressure to be this or that in society and gender issues have been created from (e.g.) usual teenage angst or anxiety.

Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral?
Fashionable because it allows a person to say "I am different and sooooo special"

Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside?
maybe, but not all feelings need to be declared on social media and scrutinised by everyone in the world.

Gender and sex are confabulated when they shoudl not be. There are two sexes, female (who produce large gametes) and male (who produce small gametes). People with DSD are still male or female and have asked to be left out of this discussion but often are pulled into it with whataboutery.

Gender is a construct but sex is immutable.
TW are natal men
TM are natal women
It is impossible for any human to change sex
The word "cis" does not apply to me or to any woman - it's an insult
Single sex spaces must remain in place to ensure the privacy and dignity of all women and girls
Every person has the right to hope for a long and productive life no matter their sex or perceived gender.
No one should be able to take women-only rights away from us on the basis of "feelz"

I understand that you believe TWAW; however many remain male-bodied women.

Many? All remain male-bodied. Ceasing to be male-bodied is an impossibility.

midge

OMG Hanoi Rocks.

I came for the inevitable row and takedown, and instead got Hanoi Rocks.

Brilliant.

@midgebabe

You wrong grey, grey doesn't just want women to shut up ( recall that grey does not see women anything but a gender identity ) grey wants all people who do not agree to shut up, no matter what gender they are

There used to be a word to describe the type of people that grey wants to shut up...now what was it....

You have no idea what I think so get off your damn high horse and stop speaking on behalf of me, you don't sound clever at all- you sound like a child. Maybe learn how to have an actual discussion about differing opinions and then come back to me.

@Pertella

Greyt just wants other women to shut up and do what they've been told.

Greyt doesn't want to actually debate and explore the issue in any way and won't tolerate being told where there opinion may be flawed.

Nope, not true. Try again.

GreyT - please could you answer my question?

Its absolutely true given your continued digging of answering a direct question.

But the longer you continue to do so, the more tenuous your position becomes, because you know the flaws and contradictions in your opinion but you just want me to shut up and go away so you don't have to answer it.

actual discussion about differing opinions and then come back to me

The type of discussion where you get to state your view and then cry bigot or flat out ignore any responses?

Soon you'll be pulling the bully card against people wanting you to clarify your points or daring to disagree with you.

Returning to @CosSam1 and his/her so called “kinder” generation - why is it absolutely not ok to categorise and demean or think less of someone who is gay/black/trans but if someone is a middle aged white woman it’s just fine and dandy to categorise and demean them as a Karen?

@GreytExpectations

Please could you answer my question relating to make-bodied women and religious groups?

@GreytExpectations
If TWAW is prostate cancer now a female disease?

Soon you'll be pulling the bully card against people wanting you to clarify your points or daring to disagree with you.

Well I have not done that at all. Maybe don't fabricate stuff if you want a discussion

@BewaretheIckabog

GreyT - please could you answer my question?

Why do you want me specifically to answer it? You've mentioned it 3 times now. I'm not saying I won't answer but I'm curious as to your motives for asking so insistantly.

@GreytExpectations

Soon you'll be pulling the bully card against people wanting you to clarify your points or daring to disagree with you.

Well I have not done that at all. Maybe don't fabricate stuff if you want a discussion

You'll notice the word soon in my sentence