Mask avoiders are basically anti-vaxers?

[Chanjer]

Aside from in the case of medical exemption obviously.

AIBU to think a lot of people that mount a personal argument against masks are of a similar mindset though?

I wear masks in theatre...they should role out surgical masks everywhete as they are comfortable, lightweight, very breathable etc. However, they are disposable.

[quote Thereisalight7]@IAintentDead do you have experience of reading research papers? I work for the government in a policy area. ALL research is discussed like that and has caveats. Research that policy is based on is the same.

Tell me if you read a policy piece I did (and have done) which took the maths and English scores of obese overweight and normal weight children which showed in regressions with similar p values to that paper that overweight and obese children ‘appear’ to perform poorer in their maths and English scores. These types of research and a multitude of others are looked at together by policy makers and are why there are now programs to Try reduce obesity and campaigns to educate people about obesity. Would you honestly look at that and say ‘oh well it’s only appears like that I’ll keep feeding my child McDonald’s’

The issue with masks is people like you are trying to become experts in an area you know nothing about (or if you do I would worry about your career).

Obviously no one can say with 100% certainty that masks will in all situations and all circumstances prevent corona virus however there is statistically significant evident that they appear to do so.

That is good enough for me and for government policy makers to implement a mask mandatory policy.

If you couple that research on surgical masks with the research on any mask being better than no mask you will see there is a strong mandate for wearing masks.[/quote]
No I don't - That is why I rely on them to summarise their findings and that is what I understand as their recommendations.

They don't even mention homemade masks in their recommendations.

Couple that with incorrect wearing and less social distancing due to perceived safety and I am not remotely convinced that mask wearing is anything but virtue signalling.

Once it becomes compulsory then more people will wear them to obey the rules but there will be even fewer that wear them correctly and clean and store them correctly between uses.

I will wear a face covering when it becomes compulsory. I have a number of face coverings and a few more functional masks. The only ones that are any good at all will be used if I have to go into a medical setting or somewhere where social distancing cannot be reasonably maintained.

Does anyone find that wearing a mask makes their nose run?

It does with me. I have been wearing one to go shopping recently, and I am forever having to take it off to blow my nose, thus making my mask wearing ineffective. However, there isn't much I can do about it.

@IAintentDead then respectfully take the government advice to wear masks given you don’t understand how to interpret research. No researcher will every conclusively say that X means Y as there are multiple variables that interact with each other and they are doing the best they can to control for them. Hence vaguer conclusions however the maths clearly show that the relationship is not random. That is why the government have put in place a mandatory mask policy.

I have no idea why you and others have taken it upon yourself to ignore advice given by the government and instead rely on your own incorrect and uninformed interpretation of research papers.

FYI I cited another paper earlier that showed home made masks were not as effective as surgical but still more effective than no mask so that excuse does not fly. Also If you can clearly see people are wearing a mask wrong then you must have the ability and knowledge to wear one correctly and that is what you should do. It’s not excuse not to wear one yourself just because others need an information campaign to help them understand how to do it.

We had council workers handing out masks outside Tesco this morning. I will try one of theirs and see how I fare.

Although the council workers might have CV19 and be handing out masks with virus on them just like people handing blankets infested with small pox which killed so many native Americans.... Beware anyone handing out masks or at least wash your hands after taking it and then wash the mask before using it. These are not simple issues - that mask equals good in all situations.

We still don't have the new mask law- I checked again today. the new regulations allowing local lockdowns by local authorities are ublished but not the new face covering in shops in England views.

@Thereisalight7 beautiful

@Xenia they are washable, and I will be washing them before even trying them on, and I washed my hands as soon as I came into the house.

I have no idea why you and others have taken it upon yourself to ignore advice given by the government and instead rely on your own incorrect and uninformed interpretation of research papers.

Because we live in a country where we can ignore government guidance and advice if we don't agree with it whilst staying within the law. I can choose to drink more alcohol than 'guidance', I can choose to ignore vaccinations recommend for travel. All of that is ignoring advice and guidance within the law.

I won't break the law (although interesting comment from Xenia that there isn't one yet) but I can choose to spend my money elsewhere or just save it in the bank instead.

@ButterMeCrumpets “Because we live in a country where we can ignore government guidance and advice if we don't agree with it whilst staying within the law.”

I suppose you can’t argue with stupid.

But please stop using research you don’t understand to reinforce your points.

But please stop using research you don’t understand to reinforce your points

Not sure where I have done that? I have given my own personal views on masks and what the new measures mean for my own shopping behaviour.

It will be a moot point soon. If the government has failed to make it law, it means it’s caved into public opinion and will rescind it in a couple of weeks. Remember quarantine for people arriving in the country? How long did that last?

@ButterMeCrumpets err you quoted my post specifically about using research in correctly to back up anti mask views... why reference it if you’re making a completely different point

I quoted the part where you couldn't understand why anyone would ignore the advice of the government.

I have been reading all the CV19 laws as they come out. Usually they are issued about a week before they come into force so if the new law in England comes in on 24 July I would have expected it to be out by now particularly as the new regulations on local lockdowns which I think were annouonced after have been. I cannot see the face coverings provisions in these local authority regs www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/750/contents/made but I might have missed other regs. You can search all 2020 legislation here www.legislation.gov.uk/

I wonder if they are hoping that the mask enforcement will just come about because everyone thinks the guidance is law and hope a vocal number of the public will call anyone out without one on.

Then it will just dwindle out later when people start to relax.

@ButterMeCrumpets I think on this occasion @Thereisalight7 was telling me that I should ignore the recommendations from the research she quoted because the recommendations -didn't match her directive-- didn't tell the story as she understood it, even though they were the recommendations they weren't right because she read the raw data and her interpretation was 'righter' than the recommendations as they only ever put things in generic terms and (if we are intelligent like what she is) we should know that what they meant was what she said.

I think that is what was said - but obviously I am really thick so I'm not sure

Oh, and if I was as educated as her and knew how to read their data I would know that she was right and what they actually said in their recommendations was wrong.

I'm not an antivaxxer!

I'm a Brit living in New York. When the mandate to wear a mask happened here for some reason it made me bridle - it made me feel my rights were being eroded and I did have a 'screw you' mentality. I mean, this is the land of the FREE after all, you think your gonna make a died in the wool Brit succumb to something so UN American? Shit me, even the Yanks ain't gonna put up with that!

BUT New York became the epicenter of this crisis. At one point we had more recorded cases per day in the city than the rest of the world.

And the latest figures are that we have 753 in hospital and 11 deaths in the entire state.

We locked down hard and fast and WE WEAR MASKS.

Go figure.

@IAintentDead yes that sums it up pretty well I would say. Pretty thick person who doesn’t understand how scientific published papers work tries to use them to further own agenda.

Tell me - were you under the impression that research said ‘in all situation in any case at all the measles vaccine is 100% effective and everyone should get it’? Or is it ad I said you have zero knowledge of how research works and it actually said ‘ in most cases it appears that the measles vaccine is an effective deterrent to measles’ and the reason WHY they don’t say the first that you are expecting is because there are situations where certain people with compromised immune systems would not benefit from measles vaccine hence why we aim for herd immunity.

So I hope you didn’t get your children vaccinated given you definitely would believe the recommendations were not strong enough

Like I said your pure ignorance about research is leading you to have a view on masks that is incorrect. Why you have decided you know better than those in the field is beyond me.

@ButterMeCrumpets ah ok you are another one who selectively takes information reinforce your own view.

No wonder so few are out and about in masks.

• @ButterMeCrumpets ah ok you are another one who selectively takes information reinforce your own view.*

Well first of all I don't call anyone who wants to wear a mask any names/thick/anti/pro anything else which seems to be the default setting for these type of threads.

I also don't think that belittling anyone with differing viewpoints wins any arguments.

The government has mandated masks in shops but not for shop workers. Why is that? Where is the evidence that shop workers won't spread any viruses but shoppers do?

My objection is the guidance doesn't make sense to me and even if they said right everyone put a mask on inside any building that isn't your home I am still allowed to disagree with it. You cannot police my viewpoint however much you really really want to. I think that fundamentally is what you want isn't it.

@Thereisalight7 nice of you to quote half of my post, call me selfish and yet miss out completely the bit where I said I’d just avoid places masks are required.

I have no desire to wear a mask. If I have to go somewhere they are mandatory, I will wear one. But I will be avoiding all but absolutely essential trips to the shop. What is selfish about that, exactly?

I hadn’t thought of it that way before this OP but yes, it makes sense. Believers in conspiracy theories and pure selfishness, yes indeed anti maskers are like anti Vaxers.

The anti vaxxers have been quite vocal and recruiting to their bonkers anti logic science and politics throughout this pandemic. Loads of stuff about not believing that it's actually happening, people aren't dying etc, lapping it up for the me me me they thrive on. I'm not surprised they're anti mask it's a great way for them to be visible in public and get the attention they desperately crave. I'm not asking anyone without a mask why not. 1. They might be one of the small percent of genuine and far more likely 2. They are the exact selfish bore I haven't got time for.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/disabled-scots-lawyer-disgusted-after-22380425?fbclid=IwAR0kTWJTrE-LAf-DL2YN0JXuvl-0tJ8sKWy5z4MsjiXwfRxyrA1gV_VnhUA

Disabled Scots lawyer 'disgusted' after being harassed and refused entry to shops without face mask
Daniel Donaldson has hidden disabilities and says he has been taken aback by the treatment he has received on the street from strangers

A disabled Scots lawyer claims he has been regularly harassed and abused by strangers for not wearing a face mask in shops.

Daniel Donaldson has hidden respiratory disabilities and is exempt from wearing a mask.

The 40-year-old, who is a disability rights lawyer, says he has been left ‘disgusted’ by the discriminatory treatment directed towards him and others who are permitted to not wear a face covering in public.

He claims he has been confronted by strangers, subjected to vile verbal attacks and refused entry into stores since face masks were made mandatory in shops in Scotland on July 10.

Daniel told the Daily Record: “I have hidden disabilities and underlying medical conditions and therefore I am exempt from wearing a mask.

“However I have been utterly taken aback at the treatment I, and others in similar situations, have experienced since they were made compulsory two weeks ago.

We are being discriminated against and refused access to shops on some occasions, and that is just not acceptable.

“I’m disgusted.

“Just last week I was stopped in John Lewis by a customer who demanded to know where my mask was.

“I said I am exempt and then a further explanation was demanded, to which I told the person to ‘p* off’ because it’s a breach of my privacy.

"Face masks affect my breathing. This raises my respiration. This increases my heart rate. This causes distress. To wear this, I need to take diazepam. In addition to the regular medications, and liquid steroids to help keep my airways open

Daniel also slammed the Scottish Government for “rushing through” confusing legislation to enforce the new rule.

He added: “The problem is, the Scottish Government published this law three hours before it was introduced.

“There was no consultation with disability groups, no taking into account how it would affect them.

"The guidance is confusing, and doesn't make it clear that we don't need medical evidence to prove we are exempt."

Daniel, from Glasgow, says he was desperate to get out and about after being cooped up at home since the end of February.

He has been relishing the easing of restrictions but was not prepared for the amount of people who would challenge him in the street or in shops over his lack of PPE.

Daniel said: “I’m not jumping on the anti-face mask bandwagon here, I just believe people with disabilities who are exempt have the right not to be harassed going about their lives.

“Disabled people are not lepers, we are not going out there to spread the virus, and if staff and other customers are wearing their face masks, they have nothing to worry about, they are protected.

“So I’m just trying to raise a bit of awareness as we all try to get back to a bit of normality because it has been a lonely time for all of us and it’s not fair that some are feeling worry about finally getting to go into shops.”

Daniel, who runs the Disability Law Centre in Glasgow, has been using his organisation’s Facebook page to raise awareness and call shops out for discriminatory treatment.

He has also stepped in when he has witnessed harassment of others.

He added: “I have intervened in a number of incidents and I try to help as much as I can.

“Last week a security guard at a shop in Glasgow was trying to stop a young girl from entering because she didn’t have a mask, even though she was explaining why she couldn't wear one.

“He was intimidating her and I was not happy with his tone to this young girl, another woman said it was disgusting, so I took it up with management and they apologised profusely.

“But we can’t be there to see all these incidents unfold.”

Proof of exemption is also not a suitable solution to the issue, according to Daniel.

He said: “Things like exemption lanyards or so called medical evidence will not work.

“If you put a lanyard on, it’s like putting a big disability sticker on you forehead.

“All we can do for now is raise awareness because the system right now is not working.

“It makes me wary to go out but I will continue to live my life and try to help others do the same.”

A Scottish Government spokesperson said: “As the First Minister has said, no one should be abused or treated in an unacceptable way and those exempt under the regulations should not be made to wear a face covering or denied access to shops.

"Retailers can ask people to wear a face covering, but should be understanding when people tell them they are exempt and we do not expect staff to enforce the wearing of face coverings.

“The guidance on the use of face coverings by the public is contained in the Phase 3 Staying Safe and Protecting others guidance on the Scottish Government website.

This makes clear that it may not be appropriate for those who have a health condition or for disabled people to wear a face covering.

“For those who are not exempt, it is now mandatory to wear a face covering on public transport and in shops or other retail outlets, and we expect face coverings to be worn when in an enclosed public space where it is difficult to maintain two metres physical distance and where there is a risk of close contact with multiple people you do not usually meet.”

Find out more about Daniel's campaign to promote awareness of hidden disabilities here