To ask how much of your income you spend on school fees? And pls tell me its worth it...

[Claliscool]

Not rich by any means.
Decided to send both children to independent school in September due to all sorts of covid and other reasons. The fees are about one third of our household income. Just bricking it slightly.

DH went to private school and is from a solidly middle class family. I’m from one of the most deprived areas of the U.K., and went to state school. I earn almost twice as much as DH. I honestly don’t think it makes a massive difference

So DH didn’t take advantage of what he was given then? That’s his choice. He wasn’t as determined as you!

Why is success valued in how much you earn. Surely it’s about having a fulfilled and useful life, it’s not just about what you take out but what you contribute . The value of an education is about so much more than how much you earn, a good education enriches you intellectually And emotionally it gives balance to your life . It’s not just about passing exams and earning a lot.

I don’t measure the worth of my children’s education by how big their salary cheque is . I measure it more Their ability to make the choices that are right for them and whether they are fulfilled in their careers and their lives.

Some people are driven by money to prove themselves to others. “I’ve come from nothing and look at me now” type of boasting.

@Msfrazzled
Where I am in London most of the private school children travel independently on public transport. Both of mine started coming home from their Prep school on the bus in Yr5. I am sure there are children from leafy comps who are less familiar with public transport than my two. Travel for schoolchildren is free or heavily discounted in London.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude yes better in London when everyone however rich uses public transport and it's free for kids so no messing around. I live in Bristol so most people avoid the bus if they can. Anyway, the behaviour of the kids going to private school is a poor reflection on their parents and school, how much of that is connected to how they see their privilege I don't know.

My husband went to a state school that backed into a private school. The private school kids would throw coppers at them through the fence because they 'needed the money.'

It’s not free for kids In London now. That’s been stopped.

@My0My. He just wasn’t academic. He’s still hard working.

We have debated putting DS to private school but decided that we would rather save the money towards his first home. But up to each family what they choose to do. Wouldn’t criticise one way or the other

“My oldest 2 children attended a much sought after independent school where that was purportedly the case. The kind of school that attracts lengthy threads on Mumsnet. My older children laugh at those stats. - apparently the data is 'managed' and many C or worse grades are edited out due to remarks/resits or pupils asked not to sit exams.”

I really think don’t these schools need to fiddle their results. If this sets possible, they’d all be at it - including the state sector. They all do the same GCSEs. All DC sit at least 10 GCSEs.

A school such as St Paul’s Girls gets over 98% 9-7 grades at GCSE. They are top of the league tables every year and there’s many others that are very similar. If these schools were fixing grades, do you not think there would have been an investigation into this by now?

Plus, there’s only 100 in a year group at St Paul’s Girls. They all know each other and have a good idea of friends who may have got the odd “6” . You can count them in one hand. The results are published on the websites in the very day they come out - hardly time for any retakes. It’s quite a risky thing to say schools are fraudulent.

I’m not sure what school is being discussed above, but only a few weeks ago a famous independent school was in the news for deliberately overstating pupils’ predicted A level grades on their UCAS forms, knowing that universities are more likely to be lenient with a missed grade once they’ve made an offer. Who knows how many others do this as predicted grades aren’t published or in any way transparent.

I managed to see both my DDs through state education from 3 to 18 at no cost to me. DD1 is now 30 and earns 120k a year, DD2 is about to complete her last professional exam and her earnings will be 50k from next year, when she'll still be in her 20s. Not bad for a free education eh? (And no, they didn't go to a grammar or otherwise selective school, just a basic big standard comp)

@4catsonabed it's not compulsory to do 10 GCSEs. Nearly all schools will off roll. Often it'll be a case of swapping a course so instead of potentially getting a C in a tough subject, only allowing children to do GCSE exams for subjects the child is more likely to get an A in. It happened in my state school and I'm sure has never stopped. It's not a scandal because really the kids that aren't going to get their C grade GCSEs are likely to have been given up on long before that. It's sad but happens. There are different exam boards too, some easier than others. Millions of ways to massage the figures. It doesn't take away from the kids get get straight A's but most of the ones that do are winners in a system rigged in their favour so much it's almost impossible not to.

When I did my higher tier GCSEs it was almost impossible to be below a C, I think it was 10% of questions correct to achieve that grade. If you sat the lowest tier paper you needed 75% to get a C. I'm not saying that is wrong but there are ways and means.

If you can afford it and want to do it what is the problem? If you can’t or don’t, no problem. Opinions are just that. Live the life you want and let people live the life they want to live.
Fact: classes in state schools would be bigger without the independent sector.

The “it’s for more than money and success than exam results” posts make me 🙄. That can only be written by someone extremely priveleged - for most of us the ability to earn a decent wage to support ourselves and our families is absolutely crucial. Less so I guess for monied families who have a deep safety net. We don’t. We only have what we earn ourselves so yes that is the most important thing

MrsFrazzled - Yes I realise it’s not compulsory to do 10 GCSEs. I was talking about St Paul’s etc. They do 11 there as standard. They don’t need to tell students to drop subjects.

I have DC in some of these schools and, if I’m talking about last year’s GCSE, only one dropped off the curve due to severe mental health problems, despite the school’s best efforts. This student had to drop out entirely before Christmas. All the others did 10 GCSE’s plus another diploma run by the school. This is a year group of over 200. The results were published the day they came out. Yes, a few were sent for remarks, but the difference was minor. Almost 95% of grades were 9-7. The school has nothing to hide. There are many other schools within a square mile who achieve higher results than this. They don’t need to manipulate grades.

Having said this, I am aware of a new independent school (much smaller), a few years ago, which was having some difficulty establishing itself and there was talk that students were being asked / told to drop subjects they were likely to get low grades in. The parents saw through this in a second and it damaged the reputation of this school, to the point people are still wary.

But schools such as Westminster etc have no need to ask students to do 8 GCSEs.

@4catsonabed
'fraudulent' and 'fiddle' were your words not mine. You seem to be a little defensive? All I'm saying is it's possible to present data in the best light possible. That's not news to anyone is it? Let's not forget that private education is a business enterprise and results sell. Parents want a cast-iron guarantee that the most selective will deliver optimal results. What's that iconic saying? Lies, damned lies and statistics. Oh, and I didn't name a school specifically.

So long as you accept that all the enriching experiences and rigorous intellectual stimulation you can purchase for your child does not actually make them a better person, a nicer person, any more useful to society, or even necessarily more self-fulfilled, it just makes them someone who has had experiences you wanted to give them, which they might or might not appreciate, then it’s all hunky dory. Some people do tend to mythologise all this, though - eg with the put downs of people who claim their children have great careers with high incomes without having been privately educated as being bragging and aspiring to the wrong things in life, whilst going on to imply as strongly as their own fragile ego will allow them that their own brand of bragging about their child’s intellectual enrichment and confidence boosting is revealing their superior understanding of what makes a fully rounded individual!

Well sorry if I sound defensive, but to be honest, it’s so easy to make sweeping statements on here and it can be annoying.

As for “presenting data in the best light” - well, you could accuse any school of this, including a failing state school that is desperate to hide abysmal standards or malpractice. No school is immune.

I can think of two state grammar schools that get about 90% 9-7 at GCSE too - one being Tiffin Girls in Kingston which is a grammar that has no catchment area but just takes the top x% from their entrance exam at 11 plus. They get the results by being super-selective and they do what they say on the tin. It is what it is.

It is far too hard to generalise. The very academic private schools and super selective state grammars don't need to and do not fiddle exams (nor do state comps)

I don't think parents expect cast iron guarantees the very selective schools get high results as the occasional child decides to do no work or not turn up for the exams although it's rare. There is no particular wickedness or not playing by the rules in the private rather than the state schools. The lost idle and least bright in both systems do worse in exams.

I did not pay fees to get good exam results for the 5 children but wanted a range of things I got from my own private education which seems to work for this family. However I respect the choices and different views of others too and in fact this year (first grandchild going to school) I would never say my preference or interfere.

Lots of people get good exam results and good careers from the state schools attended by about 93% of children. If a parent has children earning a lot who went to a state school - that's good. I want hard work to be rewarded.

@4catsonabed

Well sorry if I sound defensive, but to be honest, it’s so easy to make sweeping statements on here and it can be annoying.

As for “presenting data in the best light” - well, you could accuse any school of this, including a failing state school that is desperate to hide abysmal standards or malpractice. No school is immune.

I can think of two state grammar schools that get about 90% 9-7 at GCSE too - one being Tiffin Girls in Kingston which is a grammar that has no catchment area but just takes the top x% from their entrance exam at 11 plus. They get the results by being super-selective and they do what they say on the tin. It is what it is.

Yes, I agree with you on this. Schools of all denominations are under immense pressure to perform and will therefore do everything possible to maintain and exceed expectations. Sometimes at whatever cost and the pressure on students can be huge (from parents and from the school).

It's a universal fact that the more you select and cream off high achievers, the more likely you are you get better results, and fee-paying parents will expect this. However, it's not a guarantee.

I've given my opinion borne out of experience - selective independent, super-selective grammar and state comprehensive. All have their pros and cons but if money is an issue I would not recommend paying.

We had no idea we were going down the independent route until I called our local primary schools and the admissions people laughed at me down the phone re- my hope of a place. The first school, it was because were not religious enough. The second school, it was because we lived more than 500 metres away (not joking). And another one, we were literally “from the wrong side of the tracks” (ie railway tracks). So we ended up going bloody miles to a different area to our only hope of a primary. The head there actually said these words to me, “You don’t seem like the kind of people for this school, I have to be honest with you.” There was graffiti like “F off” in the corridors (primary school)! and loads of mums / dads with vicious dogs on the gates - to the extent the head told us to take a side exit.

So the first DC went to a prep at 4 and then others followed. If we hadn’t have had the money, we would have had to move. I don’t know where, but we would have had to have done something.

re:St. Paul's (boys though) - they are selective to a stupid level. Their intake is based on very high expectations to be met. So they skim the top of the best. (if I was Trump I'd say they have the bestest :))
And they do prep them heavily for appr 10 GCSEs and expect them to be in the top 95 percentile. But they do give every help they can and the kids need. I don't get the feeling that they fudge any numbers, and if a kid selects a GSCE subject that he is not that good in they give him extra help to push him over the expected line. I have not heard from one kid that they asked him to drop a subject even if they are only expecting a C at the moment.

We though a lot about private/public and our opinion was that a school like St.Pauls is worth the money. They have opportunities within school that they would otherwise not get. Just any private school, for the sake of being private is not worth it.
(and also St. Paul spend sooooo much on bursary! Others, like King's spend only a fraction - thus they have to lower standards at intake to accommodate the given cohort. Meaning that the standards are not necessarily as consistent)

I haven’t read all the replies so I apologise if I have missed this but how do your children feel about it and what do they want? (I appreciate I don’t know their ages so this may be irrelevant but for a certain aged child moving schools/friendships could have a huge impact.) Only you can define what ‘worth’ means to you and your family. I had a friend who was privately educated and her DM loves to remind her about the years of sacrifice to send her to private school for her to ‘end up’ in a normal job (whatever that means!)

That’s what I was trying to explain pages ago. Pay for quality. Don’t pay assuming it’s better than the local comp when it’s really not. Don’t buy a Nissan Juke thinking it’s a Porsche 911!

In fact, to add to the above primary school shenanigans, I will also say that we’d already moved house into what we thought was the catchment area for two good primaries. Yet they laughed at me down the phone.

As so say, we had no intentions of even thinking about independent schools. But following the visit to the primary where the head basically told me not to send my child there, I phoned around some independents. They all laughed at me as well because apparently, I should have signed him up before his first birthday - absolute latest! I had no idea about this as I’m not even British and DH wouldn’t know either.

So the only school I could find him a place whets he would have any chance at having local - ish friends (which I thought was most important at 4) was at was what is called a “pre prep” - ie boys have to leave at the end of Year 2 (though girls could stay to Year 6). I had never heard of such a system and just presumed they would let him stay on.

Well, no, I had no idea. As soon as he was halfway through reception, they were basically prepping him for 7 plus exams ( which are taken in the January of Year 2, so most if them are actually 6). I said to the teacher, “What do you mean, he has to do VR / NVR / write a short story with a beginning, middle and end and an hour long maths paper? He can barely hold a pen!” She said, “Yes we had noticed that..., hmm.” Next thing I know, he was having an Ed. Psych assessment (which they charged me £500 for) and they called us to a meeting and showed us all these doom and gloom percentiles and told us he was dyspraxic. The SEN teacher said to me - “This child will struggle EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE...” I was so upset, as you can imagine. Then, for some reason, they still wanted him to sit the 7 plus exams for St Paul’s (Colet) and the other usual suspect schools - and he got NO offers.

So he moved going into Year 3 to another independent which was absolutely beyond amazing. He was only there for four years, but that school gave him so much confidence - not only academically, but in so many ways. Worth every penny. Then at 11 plus he got into St Paul’s and four other similar schools and the time has flown really - some ups and downs, to be fair, but overall positive experiences - and he got ten grade 9s at GCSE and now applying to Oxbridge. So it all worked out, despite that bloody 7 plus prep that was a total nightmare.